Anglicans in search mode

[Hesychios]

Greetings all,
I noticed that most of the congregations taking a strong moral stand in the Episcopalian church of the USA during the present crises are evangelical protestants, not actually pro-Catholic. Virtue Online mentions nothing about priests or congregations leaving for Rome, but records several evangelical parishes splitting off almost every week!

Can it be that the Anglo-Catholic Episcopalians are actually content with the liberal slant of their church? What are Roman Catholics doing to reach these people?

Have any new Anglican Use parishes been established since 2003, or is that program on hold?

Are there statistics on individual or family conversions from Anglicanism available? I am quite curious.

Thanks in advance.

Michael

 

[slyboots]

Most of the Anglo Catholic folks have already left that sinking ship and joined up with smaller non-geographical diocese. In fact all the Anglicans I know ( and I know quite a few having come from that branch) have joined up with more conservative diocese. The ones that are staying are not Anglo Catholics. They are protestant Episcopalians who have liberal viewpoints in most all things.
I was manager of an Episcopal diocesan bookstore for 8 years. That’s where I studied to become a Catholic.

 

[Khoria_Anna]

The Episcopal Church came into being in the 18th C. when American revolutionary ideas forced their separation from the Church of England. The constitution and canons of TEC parallel the constitution of the US. They cannot imagine the Church being anything other than a democracy, with each person’s ideas being equally true. Authority has no meaning for them, other than as an oppression. They are going the same way the US is going. They’ve exchanged liberty for license and are paying the price.

 

[PauloFreire2]

refreshing. Sometimes I wonder.

 

[udoc89]

I’m an ex-episcopalian. I bailed out of that sinking ship in 1997 along with my husband and two children. My brother is still holding on, swinging from branch to branch to twig…It is pitiful to witness. We are no longer able to talk about it, though it has also caused strife in his own marriage. My sister-in-law converted to Catholicism a year before my family did. Their children are now Lutheran and some crazy sect started by someone called “Watchman Nee.” I hate to say this about my brother, because I love him dearly, but I think his failure to see the forest for the trees may be related to his pride. This is fearful to me.

 

[GKC]

Most of the Anglo Catholic folks have already left that sinking ship and joined up with smaller non-geographical diocese. In fact all the Anglicans I know ( and I know quite a few having come from that branch) have joined up with more conservative diocese. The ones that are staying are not Anglo Catholics. They are protestant Episcopalians who have liberal viewpoints in most all things.
I was manager of an Episcopal diocesan bookstore for 8 years. That’s where I studied to become a Catholic.

Concur, completely, or they have become Continuing Anglicans. The first ones out the door in the late 70s were primarily Anglo-Catholics. Very few of the true breed left in the TEC. No Anglo-Catholic could agree to females in sacerdotal garments.

GKC

Anglicanus Catholicus

 

[Hesychios]

Thank you for all of the terrific responses

If a large number of Anglo-Catholics are Continuing Anglicans (I take it that means they are not in communion with Canterbury) is there a place for them in a reconstituted Anglican Province? I get the impression that the Anglican Communion outside of Britain and North America is dominated by Evangelicals, not Anglo-Catholics.

What concerns me is a loss of the “Catholic voice” in Anglicanism and the end of the Oxford Movement-influenced church party. This is probably going to be important later.

I think TEC can be written off as a shipwreck, but Anglicanism as such is far from dead, at least outside of Britain.

 

[GKC]

Thank you for all of the terrific responses

If a large number of Anglo-Catholics are Continuing Anglicans (I take it that means they are not in communion with Canterbury) is there a place for them in a reconstituted Anglican Province? I get the impression that the Anglican Communion outside of Britain and North America is dominated by Evangelicals, not Anglo-Catholics.

What concerns me is a loss of the “Catholic voice” in Anglicanism and the end of the Oxford Movement-influenced church party. This is probably going to be important later.

I think TEC can be written off as a shipwreck, but Anglicanism as such is far from dead, at least outside of Britain.

In general, the more orthodox official Anglican communion, the Africans who are taking the lead on alternate episcopal
oversight, the Asians, the Southern Cone, are more evangelical. And looser, generally, on those factors that first impelled the ACs to the door. It is to be feared that a new official arrangement would find accomadation with females in collars/miters. And that’s that. Anglicanism can surely survive, as a truncated version of the Elizabethan compromise, with neutered ACs, if any.

Yes, Continuing Anglicans are not in communion with Canterbury. The Traditional Anglican Communion is an example. Some had sought an idea of a third, orthodox CoE province, to corral all the CoE orthodox, and to be the spiritual home for the Continuum, but that seemed as likely to me as the talks (whatever they may have been) between Rome and the TAC. It fizzled, in the end.

GKC

 

[jbuck919]

I am Roman Catholic, but I have strong Anglican connections dating back a number of decades, so I do believe I know what I’m talking about.

Anglicanism in the US and to some extent elsewhere has always been latitudinarian, meaning that it accepted a wide range of views without splitting apart. It kept itself together largely through a common worship. If I may speak frankly, that is exactly what the Catholic Church does these days, and the Anglicans, by having a more worthy form of worship (at least if you are talking about the English language), actually do it better. Common worship, diverse views, this to my mind does not at all seem an undesirable state of things. Sorry, for I know that many here disagree.

Obviously, a nerve has been touched by the gay priest/bishop issue. Everyone knows the details, so I won’t go there, but the Episcopalians/Anglicans will find no true refuge in the Catholic Church, especially in the US, for while official teaching remains constant, modern Catholicism is also de facto latitudinarian with many, perhaps the majority, of members who are not under some coersion (e.g., employees of the Church), even those who are in every other fashion observant, caring less about the Church’s teachings on sexual morality and marriage, including homosexuality.

My best take on the separatist movement? Well, they are not going to get the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Lagos, I can tell you that much. There is no provision in Anglicanism, there are in fact strict prohibitions (as there are in Roman Catholicism) against extra-territorial jurisdiction. If these parishes wish to separate, they are strictly on their own. There are already Anglican separatist parishes in the US, some of them based on things as bizarre as biblical fundamentalism and the use of the 1920 Book of Common Prayer. The modern seceders can go that way, or stay, and it is as simple as that. And oh, by the way, unless their boards of trustess juridically own the parish (as some do), forget about keeping the building, folks.

 

[Melchior]

Greetings all,
I noticed that most of the congregations taking a strong moral stand in the Episcopalian church of the USA during the present crises are evangelical protestants, not actually pro-Catholic. Virtue Online mentions nothing about priests or congregations leaving for Rome, but records several evangelical parishes splitting off almost every week!

Can it be that the Anglo-Catholic Episcopalians are actually content with the liberal slant of their church? What are Roman Catholics doing to reach these people?

Have any new Anglican Use parishes been established since 2003, or is that program on hold?

Are there statistics on individual or family conversions from Anglicanism available? I am quite curious.

Thanks in advance.

Michael

Ironically, my parish was the first to start this trend back in 1996, and we are thoroughly Anglo-Catholic. In fact we had a joint Evensong recently with an Anglican Use Catholic Parish. My priest and theirs are close.

But I do understand the trend is among the Evangelicals, but orthodox AC’s are among them and in fact strated the movement.

Mel

 

[PauloFreire2]

what are the major complaints about the Anglican Church? Let me guess – homosexual marriage and priesthood, and females in the priesthood? Is that it? Are there any more? I know I once was against these things, but now, I’m not entirely sure. Everyone needs Jesus’ love. Everyone has a right to comment on Christianity. The Christian religion will always need intelligent, faithful teachers. Still, I can understand the complaints. I don’t trust feminism enough to approve of a female clergy, and I don’t want gay couples to raise children. But, I’m not prepared to condemn either group within the Christian family, either.

 

[udoc89]

By the time I left the Anglican Church in 1997 my reasons for leaving had less to do with what was wrong with that faith (i.e., female priests, etc.,) and more to do with what was compelling about the Catholic Church. I also came to view the issue of authority as paramount. I could never imagine Christ leaving the Church to flounder for 1500 years until Henry VIII and Martin Luther happened on the scene and were wise enough to fix things. And if He didn’t leave the Church to flounder, He left authority with his apostles (especially Peter) to govern His flock. I lovingly submit to that authority.

Anglicans, whether they consider themselves to be Anglican Catholics or Evangelical (like my brother) are splintering off into inumerable little groups of like-minded people–and who can blame them? They were cut off from the tree 500 years ago.

Maybe Cardinal Newman has already been quoted in this forum, but I love what he has to say on the subject:

“While you are looking about for a new Communion, have nothing to do with a “Branch Church.” You have had enough of branch churches already, and you know very well what they are. Depend upon it, such as is one, such is another. They may differ in accidents certainly; but, after all, a branch is a branch, and no branch is a tree. Depend on it, my brethren, it is not worth while leaving one branch for another. While you are doing so great a work, do it thoroughly; do it once for all; change for the better. Rather than go to another branch, remain where you are; do not put yourselves to trouble for nothing; do not sacrifice this world without gaining the next.”

I went to my great-nephew’s baptism a few months ago at my brother’s new branch church. Cranmer’s language was lovely, the music was traditional, and I could still repeat all the prayers and responses by heart. It was very familiar; very reverent. I was happy to be there with family members and old friends. The only thing missing was The Real Presence.

 

[Hesychios]

By the time I left the Anglican Church in 1997 my reasons for leaving had less to do with what was wrong with that faith (i.e., female priests, etc.,) and more to do with what was compelling about the Catholic Church. I also came to view the issue of authority as paramount. I could never imagine Christ leaving the Church to flounder for 1500 years until Henry VIII and Martin Luther happened on the scene and were wise enough to fix things. And if He didn’t leave the Church to flounder, He left authority with his apostles (especially Peter) to govern His flock. I lovingly submit to that authority.

Anglicans, whether they consider themselves to be Anglican Catholics or Evangelical (like my brother) are splintering off into inumerable little groups of like-minded people–and who can blame them? They were cut off from the tree 500 years ago.

Maybe Cardinal Newman has already been quoted in this forum, but I love what he has to say on the subject:

“While you are looking about for a new Communion, have nothing to do with a “Branch Church.” You have had enough of branch churches already, and you know very well what they are. Depend upon it, such as is one, such is another. They may differ in accidents certainly; but, after all, a branch is a branch, and no branch is a tree. Depend on it, my brethren, it is not worth while leaving one branch for another. While you are doing so great a work, do it thoroughly; do it once for all; change for the better. Rather than go to another branch, remain where you are; do not put yourselves to trouble for nothing; do not sacrifice this world without gaining the next.”

I went to my great-nephew’s baptism a few months ago at my brother’s new branch church. Cranmer’s language was lovely, the music was traditional, and I could still repeat all the prayers and responses by heart. It was very familiar; very reverent. I was happy to be there with family members and old friends. The only thing missing was The Real Presence.

Hello udoc, welcome to the forum!

Thank you for this impressive testimony, it is a gem. And a great quote from Cardinal Newman I never read before!

 

[Hesychios]

what are the major complaints about the Anglican Church? Let me guess – homosexual marriage and priesthood, and females in the priesthood? Is that it? Are there any more? I know I once was against these things, but now, I’m not entirely sure. Everyone needs Jesus’ love. Everyone has a right to comment on Christianity. The Christian religion will always need intelligent, faithful teachers. Still, I can understand the complaints. I don’t trust feminism enough to approve of a female clergy, and I don’t want gay couples to raise children. But, I’m not prepared to condemn either group within the Christian family, either.

No one wants to condemn homosexuals, least of all me.

The problem in a nutshell is that the Episcopalians of New Hampshire elected a priest in an active and very public homoerotic relationship (his nickname is ‘Vicki’) to be their bishop. This was approved by the general synod (whatever that is called) of TEC. Up until this time homosexuality was not really a bar to ordination if the candidate was committed to celibacy and abstained (I realize that Episcopalians in some places have been winking at this kind of behavior for years, but at least the few gay bishops claimed to be celibate).

In any case, it is difficult for me to see how a church can countenece such behavior in a bishop while we are all struggling to avoid extramarital and premarital liasons, and teach our children (and grandchildren) to abstain until marriage.

Nobody ever said being a Christian was easy, but the bishop should not be a sellout to the culture.