Annihilationism

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@ Tomster

You obviously have failed to understand my argument. Immortal has two senses. You have defended ‘immortality’ and then assumed an incoherent sense for it. If immortality is defined as indefinite and unbounded life, you have failed to dismantle my position. If what you are asserting means what you think it means, the essence of a soul implies existence. I reject that as incoherent nonsense.
 
expectthebest said:
Is this theology compatible with the Catholic Faith?
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The bible says in Ezekiel 28:18 that satan will be destroyed.

Ezekiel 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

The bible says the wicked will be burned on the face of the earth, not in hell.

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Proverbs 11:31 Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.

Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

Hosea 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.
 
Tomster said:
Just for your consideration.

(a) The soul is created by God and was directly infused in the body of Adam: “And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life , and man became a living soul” (Genesis 2:7)

(b) In his soul man resembles God and reflects His image in a particular manner (Genesis 1:6, 26); such affirmation implies that the soul is not something material (Eccles. 12:7).

(c) The soul is immortal; the Gospel gives ample testimony to this truth (Matthew 10:28); as regards the Old Testament, see particularly Wisdom 2:23; 3:1, 4, 10; Pslams 48:15-16, etc.

(d) From these texts is also proved that the soul is the formal element of man, the vital and rational principle on account of which man is man, i.e., a living animal specifically distinct from other animals.
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If the Matthew 10:28 proves the soul is immortal then it contradicts 1 Timothy 6. We know that there are no contradictions in the bible. It is plain and clear.

1 Timothy 6:15, 16 says “Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”
 
Tomster said:
. . . annihilation of a being by nature immortal means a reversal of God’s own plan . . .
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I would suggest that you take a some time to think about the phrase listed above.

God does not and will not annihilate a soul.
 
I would suggest that you take a some time to think about the phrase listed above.
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Why don’t you take some time to develop that into an argument worth thinking about?
 
I already have, but it seems you have glossed over the information I have presented
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God does not annihilate souls.
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Asserting a claim over and over again does not make it any more persuasive. I could attempt to reconstruct an argument out of your cryptic enthymeme, but the objection doesn’t seem interesting enough to be worth the effort.

So, if you want me to countenance the idea, lay out, premise by premise, your argument.
 
Good grief, man, how long have you been Catholic?

Before the creation of man God said, “Let us make man to our own image and likeness and let him have dominion over the beasts and the whole earth” (Genesis 1:26). Man is made in the image of God; his likeness to God is to be found in his soul, which possesses reason and free will, and thence has the power of knowing what is beautiful and good, and loving it. He, moreover, through these two faculties has dominion over the visible world, as God has dominion over the whole universe. In the words spoken before the creation of man, God joined together the likeness of Himself and dominion over the earth. Man attains to a perfect likeness to God only when he is in the grace of God, for in this case he is made a “partaker of the divine nature” (2 Peter 1:4). The just man is truly the lord of the whole earth and all creatures upon it, whereas the sinner is the slave of creatures. Man, through his likeness to God, has not only the power of knowing the true and the beautiful and the good, but he also has the power of knowing, loving, and enjoying God in His divine majesty. Just as a globe has a feeble resemblance to the earth, soul the soul of a man has a feeble resemblance to God. The soul is also an image of the Blessed Trinity, in virtue of its three powers, memory, understanding and will. In its memoryit resembles the Father, in its understanding the Son, and in its will the Holy Spirit. As these three powers are united in one soul, so the three persons of the Blessed Trinity are united in one and the same nature. Notice the words used at the creation: “Let us make man,” thereby indicating the plurality of Persons in the Blessed Trinity. It is its likeness to the Blessed Trinity that gives to every single soul its priceless value; it is this which explains the Incarnation. The soul of a man is worth more than all the stars of heaven. The body of man is not made in the image of God, for God is a pure Spirit, but yet the likeness to God stamps itself in some way on the body, as being the instrument of the soul, both in its upright bearing, and in the dominion it exerts over the irrational animals (Psalm 8: 5-6). “What is man that Thou art mindful of him? Thou hast crowned him with glory and honor, and hast given him dominion over the works of Thy hands.”

The soul can never cease to exist, but it becomes spiritually dead when it loses the grace of God by mortal sin. It cannot lose consciousness, but it can lose God. A branch that falls from the tree continues to exist, but is nevertheless dead. Sinners are thus dead, even while they live; the just on the other hand live even after they are dead.

That the soul of man is immortal we know from the words of Jesus Christ:
Matthew 10:28
Luke 23: 43
Luke 16:19
Matthew 22:32

God does not annihilate souls!
 
Daniel_Rubio said:
I am the author of the defense in question. A few points where people seem to be confused:

(1) The form of annihilation I am advocating does not deny that there is a place ‘Hell.’ What it does deny is that rational free beings will be eternally tormented there. For people stuck on the need for fire and brimestone (I am not one of them), it may even have fire.

Does the fact that people are not termented eternally there mean it has no purpose? I don’t think so. I think it can serve a redemptive purpose (for those who are able to leave it, via the same processes that allow people to leave purgatory for heaven), or the annihilative purpose (for those who are totally corrupted).

(2) Does this go against the catechism?

I think not. The catechism stipulates total separation from God as part of hell. How, precisely, does one exist who has been separated from the source and sustainer of existence? Unless you want to argue that souls exist necessarily (in which case, good luck), I think you must grant that they cannot. In which case, the catechism is either inconsistent or it does not deny annihilation.

(3) This is different from Lewis’s view, although it does share a number of features. Lewis saw hell as an eternal destination for some people, but a place “locked from the inside.” I deny that such a place can be locked from the inside by free beings.
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The twofold punishment of the wicked, according to St. Thomas Aquinas, corresponds to the twofold nature of sin, which is both a turning away from God (aversio a Deo) and an inordinate turning towards a creature (conversio ad creaturam). “Punishment,” he says, "is proportionate to sin. Now sin comprises two things. First, there is a turning away from the immutable good, which is infinite, and therefore, in this respect, sin is infinite. Secondly, there is the inordinate turning to mutable good… In this respect sin is finite, both because the mutable good itself is finite, and because the movement of turning toward it is finite, since the acts of a creature cannot be infinite. Accordingly, in so far as sin consists in turning away from God, its corresponding punishment is the pain of loss, which is also infinite, because it is the loss of the infinite good, i.e. God. But in so far as sin turns inordinately to the mutable good ], its corresponding punishment is the pain of sense, which also is finite.

Poena Damni and Poena Sensus

The pains of Hell have two distinguishing characteristics: (1) they are eternal and (2) they differ in degree according to guilt.

God does not annihilate souls!
 
The soul can never cease to exist, but it becomes spiritually dead when it loses the grace of God by mortal sin. It cannot lose consciousness, but it can lose God. A branch that falls from the tree continues to exist, but is nevertheless dead. Sinners are thus dead, even while they live; the just on the other hand live even after they are dead.
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As far as I can tell, this is the only argument contained in your first post. It’s an analogical one, and therefore inductive. We will therefore note that my own, deductive, argument for annihilation, if sound, would defeat it.

However, there is a relevant disanalogy to point out here: a branch severed from a tree does not depend on that tree for it’s existence. A sinner does depend on God for his existence, so separation from God means annihilation (loss of existence).

Now, as for your citing of Thomas (you would have done better to cite an argument, instead of a teaching. Assertions are cheap):

If sin is infinite + finite, the punishment need only be infinite. Annihilation is an infinite punishment (it has no end) and is indeed a greater punishment than endless torture, because the tortured still has one good (existence).

What you need is an argument for the following conclusion: God’s justice requires unending torture.

PS: Repeating ‘God does not annihilate souls’ over and over again doesn’t help your case. I’m not confused as to what you are trying to argue for, although I have yet to see a good argument for it.
 
The immortality of the soul is that attribute in virtue of which the human soul is free from death. That the soul is immortal is proved thus:

(a) The human soul is incorruptible both per se and per accidens.

(b) The human soul cannot be annihilated either by itself or by any created being. Annihilation is the reduction of something to nothing. But this cannot be the effect of any positive action, for every postive action terminates in a positive reality. Any positive act, other than creation, therefore can only cause a change in the soul. Therefore any action whether of the soul itself or of any other creature can effect merely a change in the soul. It follows therefore that annihilation can be effected by God alone who created and conserves the soul in being by the withdrawal of his sustaining or conservative act.

(c) The human soul does not perish at death. The moral law commands us to do right and avoid wrong; but God is a wise, just and holy legislator; He must therefore have fortified this law with a perfect sanction in this life. Therefore the soul must exist for at least some time after death, so that the present deficiencies of the practical order shall be set right. If there is no retributory state, then the moral life of man is an hallucination. Other arguments to establish that the soul does not perish after death can be drawn (1) from the desire of perfect happiness which is unattainable in this life, and (2) from the universal judgment of mankind in the belief of a future life, a judgment that cannot lead man into error since it springs from man’s rational nature.

(cont.)
 
(d) There is no ground for supposing that the soul will ever perish, for no reason can be given why God should annihilate it. The end for which God conserves the soul in existence is His own extrinsic glory. But this remains forever. Therefore the act of conservation should be everlasting. The only conceivable grounds to the contrary are (1) the incapacity of the soul to act apart from the body and therefore its inability to love and praise God (now against this it can be urged that since it is proved the soul lives at least some time after death it is capable of experiencing reward or punishment, it must therefore be endowed with mind and will, and so is contributing to the glory of God; and (2) the unworthiness of the souls of the wicked to exist (but against this it can be urged that they can continue for all eternity to glorify by their punishment the offended majesty and justice of God).

The Catholic doctrine that the damned will suffer forever will appear less difficult for you when you understand that their will is immovably fixed in hatred of God, and that their annihilation would necessitate the annihilation of the Saints in Heaven as well. If we could know the truth fully, we should perceive that God’s act in annihilating a soul would in some way be an offence against His justice, and therefore a contradiction of His nature.

In conclusion:

Some may ask, "Why cannot God break the rebellion of the lost soul by giving it an overwhelming grace of repentance? Or why does He not of His pity annihilate it and end its misery?

God will do neither of these things because they are absurd. When all that is now hidden is revealed, we will see that to convert or annihilate a lost soul would involve an absurdity comparable to that of constructing a square-circle. In this present life, we can see clearly that a figure ceases to be a circle if it is transformed into a square; after death, we will see that God’s release or annihilation of a lost soul would demand such a change in Him that He would cease to be God; and will see also that, as St. Thomas says, the divine mercy extends even to the wicked in Hell by making their punishment less than their deserts.
 
Daniel_Rubio said:
As far as I can tell, this is the only argument contained in your first post. It’s an analogical one, and therefore inductive. We will therefore note that my own, deductive, argument for annihilation, if sound, would defeat it.

However, there is a relevant disanalogy to point out here: a branch severed from a tree does not depend on that tree for it’s existence. A sinner does depend on God for his existence, so separation from God means annihilation (loss of existence).

Now, as for your citing of Thomas (you would have done better to cite an argument, instead of a teaching. Assertions are cheap):

If sin is infinite + finite, the punishment need only be infinite. Annihilation is an infinite punishment (it has no end) and is indeed a greater punishment than endless torture, because the tortured still has one good (existence).

What you need is an argument for the following conclusion: God’s justice requires unending torture.

PS: Repeating ‘God does not annihilate souls’ over and over again doesn’t help your case. I’m not confused as to what you are trying to argue for, although I have yet to see a good argument for it.
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Do you consider this teaching cheap?

One who does not die in the state of sanctifying grace, in whose soul there is not the radiance and the light is spiritually dead and has no life in him. Because he has consciously rejected the Savior from who alone salvation could come, he is dead for all eternity.

The eternal duration of the punishments of hell is a doctrine established beyond all doubt. Christ says: “Depart from me, accursed ones, into the everlasting fire” (Matthew 25:41). He speaks of the “unquenchable fire, where the worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:45). The few Church writers (Origen and Gregory of Nyssa) who held that all the damned would at some time return to salvation, were vehemently opposed even by their comtemporaries. Human beings so easily find sentimental difficulties with this dogma. It must always be remembered that the one delivered over to eternal damnation has consciously and stubbornly rejected the grace of God, and has hardened his heart to a hatred of God. In this hatred of God he will persist for all eternity.

In short, an inner disruption and the exclusion of divine life is the essential punishment of hell. Theoretically, of course, the damned recognize that God is the Supreme Good. However, because of their spiritual death, He stands oppossed to them, and hence they are driven to hate Him. They are thus the victims of an everlasting internal dissension. They are also aware of the happiness of the blessed, and realize that they themselves are excluded from this happiness for all eternity. To these essential torments are added positive pains, which have been designated by the name of “hell-fire.” In what this “hell-fire” consists is unknown, but it is doubtlessly different from earthly fire. One thing for certain, the bodies of the damned after the resurrection will have to endure pains. The pains of hell differ in degree. Accordingly, he who committed more grievous sins will be punished more severely.

Hope this helps! :tiphat:
 
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