Annullment with kids possible?

[Phemie]

Does anyone have a link to Annulment statistics or have info? I am curious now about how many cases are submitted per year, how many are approved, how many rejected?

I have taken some abuse over the years from Protestants who claim that Catholic annulments are all about money and that’s all it really takes. I tell them that the costs for the research and getting witness statements is just a reimbursement essentially for all the time required. But it would be nice to point to numbers that show that a large percentage of them are turned down. Of course such numbers will NOT show how many never filed for anullment because of pre-screening before the process was started under advise it would never be granted without legitimate cause. Nonetheless it would be good to actually know the statistics of those cases that are submitted for formal consideration.

James

The statistics are deceiving because they will show that in the US & Canada a high percentage are granted but will not show what percentage of those are simple “invalid due to lack of canonical form”. Such marriages were deemed invalid from the time of their celebration and this is just an official acknowledgement of that lack of validity.

You’re right that the stats won’t show how many petitions didn’t even make it to the Tribunal and they also won’t show how many Catholic marriages ended in divorce where neither party petitioned for a decree of nullity.

If I look around my parish, I see many divorced Catholics who never petition for a decree and either opt to just live common-law with the new partner or enter into a civil marriage or one in a church other than the Catholic Church.

 

[Seatuck]

Does anyone have a link to Annulment statistics or have info? I am curious now about how many cases are submitted per year, how many are approved, how many rejected?

I have taken some abuse over the years from Protestants who claim that Catholic annulments are all about money and that’s all it really takes. I tell them that the costs for the research and getting witness statements is just a reimbursement essentially for all the time required. But it would be nice to point to numbers that show that a large percentage of them are turned down. Of course such numbers will NOT show how many never filed for anullment because of pre-screening before the process was started under advise it would never be granted without legitimate cause. Nonetheless it would be good to actually know the statistics of those cases that are submitted for formal consideration.

James

The problem is not the number of annulments it is the abyssmal failure of the church including all her members to insure that people are adequately prepared and understand marriage. That is the unfortunate facts you need to admit to.

 

[dborer42]

James,

You want statistics? How about this statistic. In 1968 there were about 600 annulments granted in American tribunals and today over 60,000; a 10,000% increase in the number of marriages declared null and void. Is it really likely that there are that many more invalid marriages?

Seatuck,

To a certain extent, you are right about the poor catechesis leading to a poor understanding of marriage. If one considers the quote sometimes attributed to St. John Chrysotsom that the road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops (I think I’ve also seen “bishops” replaced with “priests”), and yet this is the excuse for a significant number of marriages being declared invalid, then I tremble for the souls of those most responsible and in a position to insure the faith IS taught correctly.

This false compassion for those wanting to abandon their marriages because their heads were turned by others, but now wanting to still be considered in “good standing,” must end! How about instead, the Church show a little compassion to the abandoned spouses and the children left in the wake of the faithless spouse’s decision to shatter the family. Instead, we get kicked to the curb.

 

[puzzleannie]

I was appalled to learn from this thread that the other party’s testimony is not even considered or requested.

if you got that from this thread or any other you got it wrong. yes it is essential that every possible effort must be made to contact the other party, give them the chance to complete the interview, to make their testimony, and to provide their own witnesses. What is not required is that the party who initiates the action make personal contact with their ex, the tribunal does that, and if the party has legitimate reason to really fear for their welfare if any contact is made, that should be known to the tribunal who will proceed with due prudence. The party must make every effort to provide contact info for the ex and for witnesses–in fact the chief cause of delay is failure of the party who initiates the action to provide enough info, or to provide necessary documents.

 

[YADA]

James,

You want statistics? How about this statistic. In 1968 there were about 600 annulments granted in American tribunals and today over 60,000; a 10,000% increase in the number of marriages declared null and void. Is it really likely that there are that many more invalid marriages?

Seatuck,

To a certain extent, you are right about the poor catechesis leading to a poor understanding of marriage. If one considers the quote sometimes attributed to St. John Chrysotsom that the road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops (I think I’ve also seen “bishops” replaced with “priests”), and yet this is the excuse for a significant number of marriages being declared invalid, then I tremble for the souls of those most responsible and in a position to insure the faith IS taught correctly.

This false compassion for those wanting to abandon their marriages because their heads were turned by others, but now wanting to still be considered in “good standing,” must end! How about instead, the Church show a little compassion to the abandoned spouses and the children left in the wake of the faithless spouse’s decision to shatter the family. Instead, we get kicked to the curb.

And even your basic statistic is unrealistic… yes we have poor catechesis … but I would guess that the number of protestants who [for a variety of reasons] were submitting their marriages to scrutiny by the Church in 1968 was very small while today many of the annullment investigations performed by the Church are for marriages contracted between two non-catholics …

You do understand that the Church examines marriages that have ended in the divorce between two persons who were not catholic at the time of the marriage nor at the time of divorce - These persons received no pre-cana catechesis, no marriage encounter weekend at all before their marriages [which may or may not have been religeous ceremonies] …

Too many people marry with little thought, almost no preparation and then society wonders why these marriages end in divorce

But when catholics discuss the granting [or denial] of annullments they generally only think of “catholic” marriages … they do not consider the annullment inquiry request of the Episcipalian couple who have decided to become catholic - where one or both parties was married and divorced before they married each other … this type of 'marriage investigation" happens each day in the United States …

and I would expect happens rarely in Kenya or Mumbai …

 

[YADA]

I was appalled to learn from this thread that the other party’s testimony is not even considered or requested. …

…I am NOT comfortable with the entire anullment system and think it needs to be rethought out. James

In reality, each person gets to have their position heard … Each party is given an advocate and the marriage bond gets a ‘defender’ …

If the two parties live in different dioceses … the party that did not initiate the investigation has the option to have the diocese where they reside assume jurisdiction [this is true - even if they are not catholic nor have any desire to become catholic]

Each party answers the same et of questions. Each party is asked for their ‘witnesses’ [2 minimum] who are also provided the same questionaire to answer …

So - unless a party refuses to participate in the process by refusing to submit answers and witnesses [and / or] their witnesses choose not to submit answers … both have an opportunity to be part of the investigation process …

Even if one party refuses they still have the defender of the bond and an advocate - though I admit, it would be hard to defend a marriage bond or advoacte for someone who did not value their marriage enough to submit names and addresses of witnesses and at least minimally answers the questions put forth

Where you got the idea that "other party’s testimony is not even considered or requested" is unknown … it is not found in the church’s process …

 

[dborer42]

Yada,

Yes, I am aware that the tribunals are also investigating marriages between two non-Catholics. You are aware, I hope, that marriage between two non-Catholics can also be a valid marriage. In fact, such marriages are to be presumed valid unless proven otherwise. Can. 1060 states that, “marriage enjoys the favour of law.” It doesn’t say ONLY Catholic marriages.

In light of the demonstrably poor catechesis with regard to marriage in the Catholic Church (again, see St. John Chrysostom’s quote), I don’t think we can assume that because a non-Catholic couple did not have the benefit of our (deficient) pre-Cana courses or Engaged Encounter weekends, that we can therefore assume that they had no marriage prep at all, or that if they did, that it was somehow inferior to what the Catholic Church was offering Catholics. In some cases, this may be true. However, I would find it believable that some Protestant ministers, for example, take marriage very seriously, even if their denominations don’t elevate marriage to a sacrament.

So, even if civilly divorced non-Catholics are now involved with a Catholic, and are seeking a declaration of nullity, that is no guarantee that their previous marriage was invalid (or at least it shouldn’t be seen as a given, but rather it should be presumed valid).

Nonetheless, in my personal situation, my wife and I were both very devout in our Catholic faith, KNEW the Church’s teaching on marriage, and had what I and ALL our closest friends, saw as a good, Catholic marriage. Then, in a period of about seven months, her words went from wishing us many more years of wedded bliss on our anniversary, to claiming she had been unhappy and not IN love for many years. If this results in a declaration of nullity by the court of first instance, then said declaration is a sham. Regardless, if that should happen, (and with well over 90% of accepted petitions resulting in null decisions, I fully expect that to be the case), the case will be appealed to the Roman Rota. With approximately 90% of first instance affirmative decisions for annulment being overturned when the grounds are based on Can. 1095, the “psychological” reasons, I believe that is truly where the defense of the validity of the marriage will take place.

 

[YADA]

Yada,

Yes, I am aware that the tribunals are also investigating marriages between two non-Catholics. You are aware, I hope, that marriage between two non-Catholics can also be a valid marriage. In fact, such marriages are to be presumed valid unless proven otherwise. Can. 1060 states that, “marriage enjoys the favour of law.” It doesn’t say ONLY Catholic marriages.

In light of the demonstrably poor catechesis with regard to marriage in the Catholic Church (again, see St. John Chrysostom’s quote), I don’t think we can assume that because a non-Catholic couple did not have the benefit of our (deficient) pre-Cana courses or Engaged Encounter weekends, that we can therefore assume that they had no marriage prep at all, or that if they did, that it was somehow inferior to what the Catholic Church was offering Catholics. In some cases, this may be true. However, I would find it believable that some Protestant ministers, for example, take marriage very seriously, even if their denominations don’t elevate marriage to a sacrament.

So, even if civilly divorced non-Catholics are now involved with a Catholic, and are seeking a declaration of nullity, that is no guarantee that their previous marriage was invalid (or at least it shouldn’t be seen as a given, but rather it should be presumed valid).

Nonetheless, in my personal situation, my wife and I were both very devout in our Catholic faith, KNEW the Church’s teaching on marriage, and had what I and ALL our closest friends, saw as a good, Catholic marriage. Then, in a period of about seven months, her words went from wishing us many more years of wedded bliss on our anniversary, to claiming she had been unhappy and not IN love for many years. If this results in a declaration of nullity by the court of first instance, then said declaration is a sham. Regardless, if that should happen, (and with well over 90% of accepted petitions resulting in null decisions, I fully expect that to be the case), the case will be appealed to the Roman Rota. With approximately 90% of first instance affirmative decisions for annulment being overturned when the grounds are based on Can. 1095, the “psychological” reasons, I believe that is truly where the defense of the validity of the marriage will take place.

Yes, I am very aware of the presumed validity of non-catholic marriages … I had a Lutheran candidate in my RCIA a few years back whose marriage - that had subsequently ended in divorce - was determined to have been “Sacramental” in nature …

My heart goes out to you … but you sound as if you will be able to advocate for the foundation upon which your marriage was laid very well … I pray your witnesses will give accurate and honest information as well …

Yes, many protestant ministers do a good job to educate couples seeking marriages … but not all and many of their programs are in their infancy … Many non-catholics and non religious couples seek civil marriages [also considered by the church to be prima facia valid] … and most justices of the peace make no efforts to consider the underlaying reasons for a couple to wed …

It is a sad fact that many couples today wed after a time of “living together” or co-habitating - sometimes they have done this more than once in their past [and the country’s *divorce rates are really higher if one considers these failed live ins … this fact is an indication of the lack of understanding the true committment to the married state … and we wonder why marriages fail

I will pray for you and your situation - that the Holy Spirit guide those who review he situation and facts surrounding your marriage and lead them in all truth

 

[Ailina]

I was appalled to learn from this thread that the other party’s testimony is not even considered or requested.
James

I have been going through the annulment process for longer than a year now. The Tribunal is obligated to contact both spouses when examining a failed marriage. The Tribunal in my city contacted my ex husband three times, and he finally came in to give his testimony after the third time (although he really didn’t want to go…very complicated case).

The whole process is NOT easy and is in fact painful; at least I have found it that way. I feel like I have had this horrible weight hanging over my head, since my husband abandoned me and our children two and a half years ago. It is a very hard thing to go through, harder than the break up of our marriage.

Our marriage was impossible at the end too, so this whole annulment thing just seems to prolong the pain, imo. I’m absolutely sure I will NEVER get married again, just so I don’t have to go through annulment again. Maybe that is why the Church forces people to do it.

The cost depends on where you live. I started the process when it only cost $500. Now the price has jumped to $1000. The Canon Law trained Tribunal have costs to recover, so there will be some price to pay for it.

 

[mary1173]

I will pray for her family situation and yours

 

[Phemie]

James,

You want statistics? How about this statistic. In 1968 there were about 600 annulments granted in American tribunals and today over 60,000; a 10,000% increase in the number of marriages declared null and void. Is it really likely that there are that many more invalid marriages?

Without the corresponding numbers of petitions submitted those numbers are meaningless.

How many Catholics did you know who were divorced in 1968? How many did you know who had petitioned for a decree of nullity? Between 1953 and 1975 when I got married I know of 1 decree granted to someone in my parish. Divorces? Few and far between. Today we know that divorce is as common for Catholics as it is for non-Catholics.

And since the numbers don’t show why they were granted then we have no way of knowing how many are simple ‘lack of canonical form’ cases that were submitted to the Tribunal.

It’s true that we do an abysmal job of preparing couples for marriage. I know that in my parish there is no marriage preparation like Pre-Cana or Engaged Encounter. Each couple is handed a workbook at the prenuptial interview and they are supposed to meet with the pastor after each section is completed. In practice, and I’m usually around when they meet with him, they might meet with him twice (instead of 5 times) and the last couple met with him once and that was for about 20 minutes. How much preparation can you do in 20 minutes? This is a marriage where one is a police officer – a high divorce rate situation to begin with.

Then again, I had NO marriage preparation, absolutely none. Filled out the paperwork and that was it until I met Fr. at the door of the church the night of the wedding. But if there was ONE single thing I was aware of was that my “I will” was irrevocable. Once I’d spoken those words there was no going back – at least not unless my safety or that of my children was at stake. 33 years later we’re still together.

 

[dborer42]

Phemie,

It seems like each reply just reinforces St. John Chrysostom’s saying about the skulls of bishops/priests paving the road to hell. If, as a Church, we are going to continue to cite, as an excuse for the high number of annulments, the lack of and/or poor marriage prep, then the clergy is incurring some of the responsibility for so many failed marriages, perhaps a great deal of responsibility.

Marriage is a SACRAMENT! It should not be taken lightly. I certainly didn’t take mine lightly. Priests should not marry those whom they believe to not be able to consent to marriage, as the Church teaches. If a couple is living together (very, VERY common) they should be told to separate and live apart for six months to a year, and then come back. If they come back, engage them in some serious marriage prep.

I fear for the souls of priests like your pastor, who cannot see the importance of real, serious marriage preparation. If attending the sessions are not a priority for the couple, don’t marry them. If insisting that couples attend is not a priority for priests, woe to them. If priests, seeing red flags all over the place, go ahead and marry couples anyway, when the marriage fails, there is no small amount of culpability that rests with the priests that married them.

Now for statistics. There are two types of nullity cases, “documentary” process cases and “ordinary” process cases. Documentary process cases are those cases that are pretty cut and dried. A Catholic married outside the Church without a dispensation, it is found that one wasn’t free to marry due to a previous marriage, or had made vows to a religious vocation, etc. Of the 60,000+ annulments granted each year, around 20,000 are documentary cases. Ordinary process cases are those where Canon 1095 comes into play. Canon 1095 is as follows:

Can. 1095 The following are incapable of contracting marriage:

1/ those who lack the sufficient use of reason;

2/ those who suffer from a grave defect of discretion of judgment concerning the essential matrimonial rights and duties mutually to be handed over and accepted;

3/ those who are not able to assume the essential obligations of marriage for causes of a psychic nature.

Essentially, what happens in ordinary process cases is the tribunal is attempting to determine a person’s state of mind from years before, sometimes decades. Two-thirds of marriages declared null in the U.S. are ordinary process cases. These are also the cases that, when appealed to Rome, are overturned 90% of the time. Doesn’t anyone see something wrong with this picture!!!

I’ve also read that Peter Steinfels, a writer for the New York Times and Commonweal, as well as a professor in religion, has said that more than 80 percent of Catholics seeking annulments, obtain them. So, yes, some petitions are not being accepted. However, most petitions which are accepted (which are most petitions) result in a declaration of nullity. Dr. Edward Peters, the San Diego diocese’s director of canonical affairs, and author of 100 Answers to Your Questions on Annulments, Simon & Schuster/Basilica Press, 1997, has written that about 95 percent of ordinary process petitions accepted result in affirmative decisions.

If one is not scandalized by this, then I don’t know what else to say. Priests need to put the emphasis back on marriage being indissoluble. Once the “I do” is said, you are married until death do you part. Also, the stigma needs to be put back on divorce. When priests are running around telling marital abandoners that divorce is not a sin, when the CCC states just the opposite, this scandal of easy annulments will continue to get worse, if that’s even possible, by this point.

 

[puzzleannie]

I
Our marriage was impossible at the end too, so this whole annulment thing just seems to prolong the pain, imo. I’m absolutely sure I will NEVER get married again, just so I don’t have to go through annulment again. Maybe that is why the Church forces people to do it.

.

I am terribly sorry for your pain, and hope you will in time find, as the majority do, that this is actually a healing process, and a remedy at law, which is the reason the Church provides it. The Church forces nobody to do this. It is a remedy for those who feel in their concience that the marriage was invalid from its inception, which to have that fact established, and is required only when either party wishes to remarry.

statistics have been discussed at length, with citations, on several previous threads, and this is not that thread. they vary from diocese to diocese and country to country so as raw numbers don’t mean much, except there are a lot of Catholics entering into marriage without a clue, but we knew that.