Annullments and the kids

[ScareBear]

The kids are adults. I don’t see why they wouldn’t understand.

 

[1ke]

Ok, I get the catholic law… but what happens to the feelings and perceptions of those wonderful children who were concieved in love?

I am fearful that if my non catholic husband fills out the questionnaire to convince the catholic church that his marriage to his first wife should be annulled so she can be a catholic, then at least 2 of their children could feel that he does not think they are legitimate. He does not want to make his children feel any more pain from this terrible divorce that their mother wanted.

I know most people are concerned with the words and the legality, and the rightness in the eyes of the catholic church, but what abpout these kids??? Their parents are once again professing that their marriage was a failure. This can not be good for any child, especially the ones that are in their late teens, and do not want to be catholic. This makes me so sad.

Why would the children be involved at all?

I think you are overestimating some perceived impact on them.

If there is a need to share this information with them, then one need only explain what nullity is and isn’t.

My own parents’ marriage is null. Doesn’t bother me one bit.

 

[Corki]

Ok, I get the catholic law… but what happens to the feelings and perceptions of those wonderful children who were concieved in love?

I am fearful that if my non catholic husband fills out the questionnaire to convince the catholic church that his marriage to his first wife should be annulled so she can be a catholic, then at least 2 of their children could feel that he does not think they are legitimate. He does not want to make his children feel any more pain from this terrible divorce that their mother wanted.

Let’s back up a little here.

1. You don’t need to annul a marriage to become Catholic.
2. The husband’s filling out of paperwork is not an attempt to “convince” the Catholic Church of anything. The paperwork on both sides is an explanation of what was going on at the time of the wedding. It sounds like his wife initiated the annullment process and he is being given a chance to have (name removed by moderator)ut.
3. An annullment is an examination of what happened when the marriage started. It has nothing to do with the children. This is much easier to explain to a child (or adult) than what led to a civil divorce.

I know most people are concerned with the words and the legality, and the rightness in the eyes of the catholic church, but what abpout these kids??? Their parents are once again professing that their marriage was a failure. This can not be good for any child, especially the ones that are in their late teens, and do not want to be catholic. This makes me so sad.

If the parents are civilly divorced, there has already been a declaration that the marriage was a failure. The annulment process doesn’t change that at all - for good or bad. And again, since the children were not present at the time of the wedding, they will not be involved at all in the annullment process. There’s no reason they would even know about it unless one of their parents decided to tell them.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Let’s back up a little here.

1. You don’t need to annul a marriage to become Catholic.
2. The husband’s filling out of paperwork is not an attempt to “convince” the Catholic Church of anything. The paperwork on both sides is an explanation of what was going on at the time of the wedding. It sounds like his wife initiated the annullment process and he is being given a chance to have (name removed by moderator)ut.
3. An annullment is an examination of what happened when the marriage started. It has nothing to do with the children. This is much easier to explain to a child (or adult) than what led to a civil divorce.

If the parents are civilly divorced, there has already been a declaration that the marriage was a failure. The annulment process doesn’t change that at all - for good or bad. And again, since the children were not present at the time of the wedding, they will not be involved at all in the annullment process. There’s no reason they would even know about it unless one of their parents decided to tell them.

A Corki as I understand it in this case the person would need the declaration of nullity to become Catholic as the person is married to a man who is married to someone else so therefore cannot receive Sacraments as they are in an objective state of sin.

 

[Corki]

A Corki as I understand it in this case the person would need the declaration of nullity to become Catholic as the person is married to a man who is married to someone else so therefore cannot receive Sacraments as they are in an objective state of sin.

That may be but it wasn’t part of her post. Regardless, the annulment isn’t needed in order to become Catholic. The annulment is needed in order to regularize a current “marriage” situation which may be a step along the way to this woman becoming Catholic.

This is what I have deduced:

Man A married Woman B. They had children.
Woman B divorces Man A
Man A “remarries” Woman C (the poster)
Woman B wants to become Catholic and either has already “married” Man D or wants to.

Woman C has a problem with Woman B remarrying or becoming Catholic or both even though an annulment would give Woman C an opportunity to legitmize her own union with Man A.

Is that about it?

 

[joanofarc2008]

Lets make it even more simple - if one is in a marriage that has impediments there are two choices:

1. Do not receive Sacraments
2. Live as Brother and Sister

If they cannot receive Sacraments the woman cannot become Catholic as she cannot receive Confirmation or Eucharist.

Her husband will need to receive a decree of nullity or they will need to agree to live as brother and sister possibly for life as there is no guarantee that this will be an affirmative response.

 

[Corki]

Lets make it even more simple - if one is in a marriage that has impediments there are two choices:

1. Do not receive Sacraments
2. Live as Brother and Sister

If they cannot receive Sacraments the woman cannot become Catholic as she cannot receive Confirmation or Eucharist.

Her husband will need to receive a decree of nullity or they will need to agree to live as brother and sister possibly for life as there is no guarantee that this will be an affirmative response.

I understand. However, in the post by wonderofwonders, there is no mention of a second husband. We can reach that conclusion by reading between the lines but it wasn’t part of the information given.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Ok, I get the catholic law… but what happens to the feelings and perceptions of those wonderful children who were concieved in love?

I am fearful that if my non catholic husband fills out the questionnaire to convince the catholic church that his marriage to his first wife should be annulled so she can be a catholic, then at least 2 of their children could feel that he does not think they are legitimate. He does not want to make his children feel any more pain from this terrible divorce that their mother wanted.

I know most people are concerned with the words and the legality, and the rightness in the eyes of the catholic church, but what abpout these kids??? Their parents are once again professing that their marriage was a failure. This can not be good for any child, especially the ones that are in their late teens, and do not want to be catholic. This makes me so sad.

a) This is a matter of education.
b) The children are adults and fully capable of understanding - I think you are being scrupulous
c) Considering she is Catholic and has not wanted this all of this time why would she for a decree of nullity for any other reason minus remarriage - granted it is a big assumption - it may not be for entering the Church but possibly for return to the Sacraments but for whatever reason this woman has decided it is important to her.
d) At this point if she filed for the decree of nullity and your husband is the respondent whether or not your husband fills out the paperwork the case will continue with or without his (name removed by moderator)ut. Just food for thought. It is better usually in most circumstances that he be involved.

 

[puzzleannie]

Ok, I get the catholic law… but what happens to the feelings and perceptions of those wonderful children who were concieved in love?

I d.

nothing happens if the truth about marriage and annulment has been explained to them, so they understand this is not an adversarial proceeding like a civil divorce, it is not about assigning blame or fault, like a contested civil divorce, it is not about division of property or child custody, like a civil divorce, it is not an examination of what transpired during the marriage. It is also not about love or its absence.

it is simpy an investigation that looks at facts that pertained at the time of the orginal contract to determine whether or not the union was valid as defined under canon law.

as carefully explained above, legitimacy is not even an issue, so why on earth would the children even raise such a question–unless someone raised it for them in a malicious manner?

an annulment proceeding does not even begin until the civil divorce is a reality. do you really think that if the children are going to be harmed by the breakdown of this marriage, the damage has not already been done? the healing provided by annulment is just that. If the parties are properly educated and can get out of a blame/fault mentality they will benefit greatly.

since no poster on this thread has given any info at all about marital status as it relates to becoming Catholic, there is no use in speculating. Such a person should visit their own pastor to get specific answers to their own personal questions.

 

[wonderofwonders]

I understand. However, in the post by wonderofwonders, there is no mention of a second husband. We can reach that conclusion by reading between the lines but it wasn’t part of the information given.

A married B- neither catholic. Had three kids. XYZ
A divorced B
A married C neither catholic. Had more kids.
B married D- not catholic.
A and C decide to become catholic.
A asks B to fill out paperwork to annul the marriage.
Adult X is catholic.
Adult Y is not catholic.
Minor Z is not catholic.

 

[1ke]

A married B- neither catholic. Had three kids. XYZ
A divorced B
A married C neither catholic. Had more kids.
B married D- not catholic.
A and C decide to become catholic.
A asks B to fill out paperwork to annul the marriage.
Adult X is catholic.
Adult Y is not catholic.
Minor Z is not catholic.

Why do X, Y, or Z have any concern in this at all?

A and C should pursue both a decree of nullity and entry into the Catholic Church. If A is denied a decree of nullity then A and C will have decisions to make regarding their future path.

 

[1ke]

A married B- neither catholic. Had three kids. XYZ
A divorced B
A married C neither catholic. Had more kids.
B married D- not catholic.
A and C decide to become catholic.
A asks B to fill out paperwork to annul the marriage.
Adult X is catholic.
Adult Y is not catholic.
Minor Z is not catholic.

Why do X, Y, or Z have any concern in this at all?

A and C should pursue both a decree of nullity and entry into the Catholic Church. If A is denied a decree of nullity then A and C will have decisions to make regarding their future path.

 

[agapewolf]

Their parents are once again professing that their marriage was a failure. This can not be good for any child, especially the ones that are in their late teens, and do not want to be catholic. This makes me so sad.

I think the fact that their parents are civilly married and living with other people is an everyday reminder that the first marriage was a failure.

 

[Corki]

A married B- neither catholic. Had three kids. XYZ
A divorced B
A married C neither catholic. Had more kids.
B married D- not catholic.
A and C decide to become catholic.
A asks B to fill out paperwork to annul the marriage.
Adult X is catholic.
Adult Y is not catholic.
Minor Z is not catholic.

All makes sense except the bolded. If it is “A” who wishes to have her marriage investigated, it is up to her to initiate the paperwork. “B” will be asked to give his (name removed by moderator)ut by answering some questions sent from the tribunal or the defender of the bond. It would be nice for him to cooperate but the process will proceed even if he choses not to respond.

I think you may not understand the process called an annulment. An annulment isn’t granted just because both parties fill out the paperwork and ask for it. The paperwork is the process for gathering the background information the tribunal needs to look at the conditions that existed at the time of the marriage. If they find that something was lacking that made the marriage “faulty”, the marriage will be declared null. If they find that the original marriage was not fautlty, they will uphold the original marriage bond. The more information they have, the easier it is to investigate.

The only reason to object to the process would be if you heartily believe that the original marriage was a true, valid and Sacramental (if both were baptized Christians) one. But in that case, you wouldn’t have married “B”. A declaration of nullity means that B is actually free to marry you.

As 1ke noted, the children are not involved in this at all. Even party “C” is not involved until after the tribunal issues a decision.

 

[SMHW]

I’ve read some of your posts on other threads so I think I have some sense of what your concerns might be.

I do understand that a ruling of nullity can have a big effect on feelings, both of parents and children. If I found out that my parents had not had a sacramental marriage when I was conceived, then I would be a bit disturbed. I think Christian children do like to think that they were conceived within the bonds of a union that was recognized as such by God. And wanting one’s child to be conceived within the bounds of such a marriage is hopefully important to a parent.

But that said, feelings are not most important thing in life. And at this point, I don’t see that there is any chance of sheltering anyone --adult or child-- from uncomfortable feelings (just in case we consider that to be important) since the issue of the validity of the first marriage of the man to whom you are currently civilly married has already been raised. At this point I see that you and your husband really only have the choice as to whether you will proceed in a defensive or proactive manner.

I hope I don’t come across offensively but I will not doubt seem to be blunt. It would be my assumption that you find it important to defend the idea that God recognized your husband’s first marriage. To think otherwise seems an attack on you two and your understanding of Christianity and marriage. in fact, it seems like an attack on Christianity itself. (Most likely you believe God permits divorce and subsequent remarriage in certain cases such as adultery or abandonment.) To you and your husband, the first wife seems to be leading just such an attack.

As you are no doubt learning, Catholicism has a very different understanding of marriage from that held by most other Christians. We do not believe that a valid, sacramental (between two Christians) marriage can be terminated by anything other than death. This is because marriage is a covenant and a covenant does not break (as does a contract) if one or both parties fail to live up their responsibilities. Any seeming allowances in scripture for divorce are in reference to immoral living arrangements or civil marriages not permitted by Jewish law. But we also believe that there are certain requirements necessary for a valid marriage covenant to take place and that in the absence of these requirements, no such covenantal bond takes place. One or both parties to the marriage may, in good faith, believe they have contracted a valid marriage. But they may have been mistaken. (Because the couple acted in good faith their is no sin involved in their union and in the procreation of their children. The children are legitimate according to bother Church and civil law.)

By seeking a ruling of nullity, the first wife is hoping to have the Church discern that the original putative marriage was not a valid sacramental bond. Should the Church rule that the marriage is null and void it would not mean that the couple never loved each other. It would not mean that they should not have produced children or were sinning by doing so. But it would mean that at the time the couple exchanged vows there was something that prevented them from making a covenant that only the death of one or the other of them could break.

So yes, a ruling a nullity (should it be granted; we don’t know what the Church will decide) would seem to indicate that your husband made a “mistake” of sorts when he married the first woman. That can certainly be a blow to the ego. But since he is divorced from the woman this is not really news. The children were not mistakes. They were the good and natural results of the putative marriage.

Those of us here at Catholic Answers would encourage you to cooperate with the first wife. We have no reason to believe that either the first wife or your husband were aware of any reasons why a valid marriage could not be validly contracted. We can only assume they meant to make an unbreakable covenant. We see the only possilities to be that the covenant still exists or that such a covenant was never made in the first place. We believe it is too your advantage to determine it never existed because that allows for your husband to enter a covenant for the first time with you.

As for the children…

I believe the oldest is already Catholic? Then I would think a ruling of nullity would give this child something of sense of relief. Likewise for the children who are the product of the second marriage. Will there be sadness for them. Probably. But there is no doubt already sadness that their parents are not together. When put in the proper light this would be another piece of the puzzle as to why their parents are not together.