Another 5 yr Plan Won't Cure Loss of Faith

[ChurchSoldier]

What wonderful dialogue.

I admit to having a somewhat peculiar perspective on many things. What I see is a natural part of societal inculturation, meaning all churches of all times have existed within a culture and take on some aspects of that culture. We see this in Paul keeping the Jewish law while preaching Christ. In our times, it is just a transition from what we see as the Judeo-Christian norm, to a secular norm.

Ecclesiastical numbers are representations of issues, not issues themselves. As was mentioned, faithful families produce priests. Smaller numbers at mass are a reflection of Church members understanding of their need for salvation.

It’s not going to be easy or quick to turn this thing around. Dietrich Bonhoeffer was speaking about the church’s decline in the 1930’s, so I would think we are speaking at least 2-3 generations if not longer. But then as Christians, our time frame might be more properly thought of in terms of eternity rather than decades or centuries.

 

[goout]

There’s no compelling reason for people to respond to the Gospel.

In the US, prosperity might by the enemy of faith.
When our great grandparents arrived here with nothing, they knew they needed God out of their struggle to overcome deprivation. Now we have most of our basic needs provided for and we cannot see the need for God.

We can’t even see the need for intact families. We are the most prosperous and healthy people ever, yet as Mother Teresa said, “the greatest poverty exists in the west”.
Depression, wrath, ingratitude, greed, anxiety, etc…we are blinded by our stuff and the quest for more of it.

So I think the main impediment to faith in the developed countries is materialism/consumerism.

 

[fred_conty]

We can pray for more priests and encourage vocations–but seminarians do not descend like manna from heaven: they come from good families. Families lacking in faith do not produce priestly vocations. Faith filled families do. Which is the greater vocation crisis–too few priests, or too few faithful Catholic families? The crisis in the vocation of marriage precedes the crisis in priestly vocations.

I have met a lot of local seminarians and they are good men. Mostly they come from communities and parishes where families are close knit, faith filled and strong.

While I agree with you, I do know that sincere prayer to the Good Shepherd to send more will do it. Like he said “pray”. He knows, if anyone does, what it takes. He can overcome all our handicaps no matter what they might be. Because God seems to take pleasure in taking the weak to show strength.

I think the real one problem is we don’t take him seriously enough, and think that just by praying, won’t bring the results. That we first have to “fix” everything before it can happen. Rather than having the understanding that he will “fix” everything after we pray sincerely. He is a “man” of his word…good families or bad, good society or bad.

But we are of little faith, except when it comes to ourselves, then we are of big faith. At the snap of his fingers is all it takes. At that there would be a surge of vocations regardless of what odds happen to be against that. But we don’t think he works that way because we don’t have the strong faith to pray sincerely and believe/expect it will happen.

But it doesn’t look to me like we really want it bad enough. It is nice to say we want more vocations, and everyone agrees we need more. But when we get right down to it, we just drift along accepting it as a fact of life and try to make it the best we can. Besides, we have other priorities more important. But do we, when we look at the consequences of the shortage and all the good that is left undone, not to mention that we are wearing down the ones we have. God love them all.

“The eyes of the Lord are on the just and his ears hear their cries…”
Psalm 33

 

[otjm]

Hmmm … I wonder why you assert that, Jim G?

Personally, after struggling with this question for nearly 20 years, I can only echo the words of someone far more profound and worthy than myself who has struggled with it for the last 50 years …

http://corjesusacratissimum.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/crisis-liturgy.jpg

There is a difference between an ecclesial crisis and a faith crisis.

An ecclesial crisis is a crisis within the Church as Church - as in, struggles within, for example, the priesthood.

A faith crisis is a crisis within the indiviudal, as in loss of faith, disinterest in faith, substitution of other content (e.g. materialism), etc.

 

[otjm]

Vatican II often gets a bad reputation. But when evaluating things, Vatican II pretty much did nothing more than re-enunciate the faith. We need to look at when Vatican II came out. Our culture underwent a massive shift during the 1960s and early 1970s. Part of this was due to easy access to the “Pill”, which encouraged promiscuity. The second part was due to our political leaders, primarily LBJ and Nixon, so betraying the public trust that people started not trusting anyone in authority. So we went quickly from a country that embraced Christianity (if not Catholicism) to a country whose overall culture rejected Christianity, even though most people remained nominally Christian. Europe, of course, started their rejection of Christianity in general and specifically Catholicism much earlier, pretty much starting with the French Revolution.

while I agree that the time you note was the time of chaos, that chaos did not come out of whole cloth.

Part of it can be traced back to the French Revolution; so back to the waning days of the 1700’s; and that revolution came about from years and decades preceding.

Another part of it comes from the horrors of World War 1, and then without much more than a breather, the horrors of World War 2,

And further, after WW2 there was a rapid increase in colleges and universities, and because of the GI Bill, people who would not have had an opportunity to go beyone high school were exposed to the secularism of the professors… and the whole cultural revolution that was the 60’s was driven by the baby boomers. But the basis of that revolution was laid before they were born.

 

[otjm]

This is just my own tiny opinion, but if I had one bullet left to fix the problem, the emphasis would be on … increasing the number and quality of priests.

In our own diocese we are down to 1/3 number of priests we had back in the '60s. Churches are closing or are being combined. The number of spiritual issues with people are growing and we don’t have the good priests/sisters to meet them.

The bishops should be applauding and encouraging their priests, over and over … number 1 priority. They should concentrate all the heavy artillery on vocations, not just to the priesthood but the sisters as well. We need leadership and spiritual access which they bring to us.

Vocations! Vocations! Vocations!

Jesus told us we need to pray that the Father send us people to harvest the ripe fields.

Yes, absolutely we need more vocations. However, we need vocations of men who are on fire for Christ; not men seeking a retreat from the world, or a variation of a degree in sociology and psychology.

Interestingly, the Priests who have been ordained starting in the 90’s, often called the “John Paul 2 priests” have a far different agenda and outlook than those ordained in the 50’s and 60’s and 70’s. The new ones are not out to change the Church’ they are out carying the message of John Paul: “Be not afraid!”

 

[otjm]

This actually points to a comment I removed from my earlier post. From what I can tell in reading this forum and the Catholics / former Catholics I know, I think many Mass attendees attend out of obligation rather than a desire to enter into the presence of their creator.

Look at how many people leave mass after receiving the Eucharist; there to “check the box” of Sunday obligation.

Look at how many parents and Catechists post about youth who don’t have a faith but get confirmed due to social or familial expectation.

Now compare that to the early Christian witness. The modern Church has lost the acknowledgment of the power, and the corresponding kingdom responsibility, which our baptism has provided.

I believe when we get that back it will begin changing the Church.

You are right on point; but it is nothing particularly new. Having been in grade and half way through high school before Vatican 2 started, what we heard was “Obligation!”. My dad, who was born in 1912, would come hoe after Sunday Mass upset with how many people left as Communion started - and they continued to trickle out after it ended.

For how long has the Papacy been talking and urging us to the New Evangelization? John Paul 2; Benedict 16, Francis… each one of them has kept returning to this theme.

 

[otjm]

I wonder how St. John Vianney or St. Padre Pio would respond to our Church’s declining numbers? What would these holy men do during these turbulent times?

Most likely the same thing they did what alive - hear confessions, preach Christ and Him Crucified; and continue working to prepare us - the laity - to go out and spread the Good News.

Sadly we still focus on the rules, and fail to preach the “why” of the rules From *Messy and Foolish * by Matthew Warner, pp. 343-44:

"So now we find ourselves scrambling for ways to teach the truth, to instruct the ignorant. We demand orthodoxy. We anguish over so many leaving something they never truly knew. But we go about it all wrong. We attack all the symptoms without really getting to the heart of the matter, to what motivates all of us, including our children,

Instead of lecturing people about going to church on Sunday, let’s inspire them to want to go. Instead of telling them to dress more appropriately for Mass, let’s give them something worth dressing up for. Instead of telling them not to sleep around, let’s fascinate them with the pursuit of purity. Instead of preaching that giving is better than receiving, let’s just give."

 

[otjm]

Communion given by laity, confessions very low priority, kills incentive.

Catholics are becoming protestantized in several ways.

Altar boys are fewer, which puts them in proximity of priest/altar.

I agreed with most of what you said, but I will ask you a question. My parish has one priest and one deacon, and we have 4 laity with the Cup and 2 with the Host, in addition to the priest and deacon.

And we have girls as altar servers, as well as boys.

So why is it out of this parish we have had four priests ordained, 2 women have made professions as sisters in communities which wear a distinctive habit; 2 deacons ordained, and one if not two current seminarians?

Communion by laity, alleged protestantization, and girl altar serves are excuses, not reasons.

Oh - and the 2 who professed as sisters - they were altar servers too…

 

[otjm]

We can pray for more priests and encourage vocations–but seminarians do not descend like manna from heaven: they come from good families. Families lacking in faith do not produce priestly vocations. Faith filled families do. Which is the greater vocation crisis–too few priests, or too few faithful Catholic families? The crisis in the vocation of marriage precedes the crisis in priestly vocations.

I have met a lot of local seminarians and they are good men. Mostly they come from communities and parishes where families are close knit, faith filled and strong.

You nailed it.

 

[pnewton]

I do not see the crisis as one in the Church, as much as it is a general decline in western society. First, the Catholic Church is not declining everywhere. Second, in the west, the Catholic Church is in less of decline than other Christians. So, to address the problem as I see it, I will go to Peter Kreeft that the only things that will save us is saints. Holy priests and holy people are the things that will transform society. To this end, it is better to encourage one another in holiness, than any liturgical change.

 

[goout]

I do not see the crisis as one in the Church, as much as it is a general decline in western society. First, the Catholic Church is not declining everywhere. Second, in the west, the Catholic Church is in less of decline than other Christians. So, to address the problem as I see it, I will go to Peter Kreeft that the only things that will save us is saints. Holy priests and holy people are the things that will transform society. To this end, it is better to encourage one another in holiness, than any liturgical change.

I agree. The tone of the liturgy will reflect the disposition of the people.