Another NFP/ABC Sex question

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St.Eric

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Hello all. My wife and I recently had our second son a couple of months ago. Our children are a real blessing. We have used NFP since coming into the Church and I don’t have a problem with it. OUr children are 3.5. years apart so I know it works and I don’t have a moral problem with it since the church condons it. We are certainly open to more children, however, we really would like to avoid getting pregnant for a while. Now, since she is breastfeeding she is not on a regular cycle yet and we can’t chart or do any of the NFP thing for a while- most likely for 6 or 9 months. (that’s how long it took us to get back on track after the first one.)
We really don’t want to wait for months to have sex until we can get into the cycle mode. I know the church stance on ABC and that isn’t an option for me. Here is the question: is it sinful for us to have sex and for me to climax without ejaculating? I have the ability to (and a lot of other men do as well) have an orgasm and not ejaculate. Would this be sinful until we get back on an NFP cycle?

Second question: I know that some say that the withdraw method is sinful. My question is why? IF there are no other ABC’s involved, the couple doing the withdraw method is still open to life since sperm are present in the male lubrication prior to an ejaculation. It is possible to concieve without the male ejacultating. My two parish priests have basically said to me anything we wish to do as long as it doesn’t involve ABC is ok. He told me not to worry about withdraw. I am confused and I think not having sex will severly impact my marriage. She is very insistant that we space the kids but not wait for months to have relations. Help!
 
Whatever the priest tells you, withdrawal is not morally acceptable.

Why do you have to stop charting? Are you using one of the NFP methods that relies mostly/heavily on temperature?

Perhaps you need to look into one of the other methods of NFP that relies more on cervical mucus. There is no reason why the woman can’t continue charting while breastfeeding.
 
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SMHW:
Whatever the priest tells you, withdrawal is not morally acceptable.

Why do you have to stop charting? Are you using one of the NFP methods that relies mostly/heavily on temperature?

Perhaps you need to look into one of the other methods of NFP that relies more on cervical mucus. There is no reason why the woman can’t continue charting while breastfeeding.
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Yes, we were using the morning temperature method with the ocassional mucus checks.
 
Here is another questions. Why does it seem soooo many priests are encouraging their parish members to be in a state of mortal sin by saying that ABC or withdraw is acceptable? What’s up with this. This topic among a couple of others are contributing to me developing an increasingly bad case of scrupulosity. :mad:
 
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St.Eric:
Here is another questions. Why does it seem soooo many priests are encouraging their parish members to be in a state of mortal sin by saying that ABC or withdraw is acceptable? What’s up with this. This topic among a couple of others are contributing to me developing an increasingly bad case of scrupulosity. :mad:
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For some reason some priests think they know better than Holy Mother Church. :tsktsk:

God Bless,
Matt
 
You do not need to abstain during breastfeeding. If your wife is ecologically breastfeeding then she will be completely infertile for a while. If she is not ecologically breastfeeding her fertility will return much sooner.

I suggest you read your NFP book or call your instructor regarding using NFP while breastfeeding. You would only need to abstain when your wife’s signs of fertility begin again.

As for “ABC”… that is an unfortunate term as it implies that an act is only wrong if it has an “artificial” device. The correct term would be contraceptive act.

A contraceptive act is any action before, during, or after intercourse that attempts to engage in the sexual act while simultaneously rendering it sterile or incomplete. Withdrawing is an action taken during the sex act to render it sterile-- and it also fails to complete the act of intercourse.
 
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1ke:
You do not need to abstain during breastfeeding. If your wife is ecologically breastfeeding then she will be completely infertile for a while. If she is not ecologically breastfeeding her fertility will return much sooner.

I suggest you read your NFP book or call your instructor regarding using NFP while breastfeeding. You would only need to abstain when your wife’s signs of fertility begin again.

As for “ABC”… that is an unfortunate term as it implies that an act is only wrong if it has an “artificial” device. The correct term would be contraceptive act.

A contraceptive act is any action before, during, or after intercourse that attempts to engage in the sexual act while simultaneously rendering it sterile or incomplete. Withdrawing is an action taken during the sex act to render it sterile-- and it also fails to complete the act of intercourse.
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Thanks for the info 1ke. One question though, forgive my ignorance. what is “ecologically breastfeeding?” I a assuming this means breast milk only for baby and not supplementing it with formula?
 
I ecologically breastfed my baby and am now in the process of “natural weaning” (which is basically letting the baby set the pace for eating other foods and decreasing breastfeeding). There are seven rules of ecological breastfeeding which are:
  1. Do exclusive breastfeeding for the first six months of life; don’t use other liquids and solids.
  2. Pacify the baby at the breast.
  3. Don’t use bottles and pacifiers.
  4. Sleep with the baby for night feedings.
  5. Sleep with the baby for a daily-nap feeding.
  6. Nurse frequently day and night, and avoid schedules.
  7. Avoid any practice that restricts nursing or separates mom and baby.
I personally did not always sleep with my baby for a daily nap every day, and our baby did not always sleep the entire night with us (in fact, most nights with very few exceptions he slept at least part of the night in his crib). He is 13 months old now, and my menstrual cycle still has not returned. An ecological breastfeeding mother has a 6% that her fertility will return before her first period (that is, after the baby is 6 months old–earlier than that the % is much less, around 0-1%).

Here is a quick overview of ecological breastfeeding. I give this method 👍 👍 and would recommend your wife looking into it if she is going to be staying at home. Not only is it quite effective if the rules are followed, but I am sure your wife will enjoy not having to worry about menstruation for another year or so (the average return of menstruation for ecologically breastfeeding moms is 14-15 months!)
 
Ok, why hasn’t anyone commented on the “having an orgasm without ejaculating” portion of his post? Forgive my ignorance, but I have never heard of this before in my entire life, and if this is possible, is this a sin? :confused:
 
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luvmykids:
Forgive my ignorance, but I have never heard of this before in my entire life
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That’s precisely how I feel and suspect most others feel, too. This question might be better answered in the Moral Theology forum.
 
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luvmykids:
Ok, why hasn’t anyone commented on the “having an orgasm without ejaculating” portion of his post? Forgive my ignorance, but I have never heard of this before in my entire life, and if this is possible, is this a sin? :confused:
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It is possible. There is a medical term for it but I can’t recall it right now. Some people have control over this function. And yes, that is one of my questions. If a person can do this, is it a sin?
 
The Billings Method will work during breastfeeding. The only time you can’t be sure of your fertility status is when bleeding and any other discharge associated with childbirth is still going on and therefore masking what you’re trying to see (a few weeks), and I really don’t expect anyone would be up to the task of procreation at that early stage…
 
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Philip76:
The Billings Method will work during breastfeeding. The only time you can’t be sure of your fertility status is when bleeding and any other discharge associated with childbirth is still going on and therefore masking what you’re trying to see (a few weeks), and I really don’t expect anyone would be up to the task of procreation at that early stage…
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Billings method? Please elaborate…
 
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St.Eric:
Thanks for the info 1ke. One question though, forgive my ignorance. what is “ecologically breastfeeding?” I a assuming this means breast milk only for baby and not supplementing it with formula?
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Ecological breastfeeding includes a close relationship between mother and child-- physcially close, no feeding on a schedule, nursing on demand, every few hours including at night, no supplementing, etc.

I suggest Sheila Kippley’s book on breastfeeding and natural child spacing. You can get it from the CCLI people or probably amazon.com or a Catholic bookstore.
 
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St.Eric:
Billings method? Please elaborate…
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There are several methods of NFP. You indicated you learned Sympto-Thermal which includes temperature, mucus, and cervical position.

The Billings Ovulation Model is a different method of NFP that uses internal mucus and cervical checks only-- no temping.

I use the Creighton Model which is the third primary NFP method. It uses only external mucus observation, no temping or cervix checking.

Each method is slightly different, and individual women may choose one over the other for various reasons. They are all based on the same principles, but the instructions are different.

Personally, I highly recommend Creighton.

You can find all these methods, plus a few others, by searching online.
 
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luvmykids:
Ok, why hasn’t anyone commented on the “having an orgasm without ejaculating” portion of his post? Forgive my ignorance, but I have never heard of this before in my entire life, and if this is possible, is this a sin? :confused:
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I answered on the Moral Theology forum. Yes, this would be a gravely disordered action.
 
The Billings method was developed by Dr Evelyn Billings in Australia (and her husband I believe) and if you do a Google search for Billings Method or woomb.org or something like that, it’ll pop up.

It works on the basis that cervical mucus changes as fertility conditions change. When nothing’s changing then you are infertile. When something changes then you are moving into or out of or are in a fertile phase.

It splits the cycle into ‘red days’ (menstrual bleeding), green days (no mucus I think), yellow days (one type of mucus) and white days (a type of mucus that signals ovulation). I may be wrong with some of these descriptions - best to get the book.

Anyway it is easy to learn and has been tested and found to be over 99% accurate at achieving or avoiding pregnancy in very large trials with hundreds of participants.

It is independent of cycle length because it doesn’t make any assumptions like “there will be 14 days between ovulation and the next period”. The only timing it uses is the fact that an egg will live for a certain time and sperm will live for a certain time.

In an average cycle, it will give around 10 days where sex can be had on alternate days (the spare day in between is to allow seminal fluids to disappear so mucus can be identified if it is there). Then there are the ‘white days’ where ovulation occurs and the egg is available for some time and any sperm going in before and after that can cause conception. That takes about 5 days to a week to pass through. Then you have ‘green days’ which could go 7-10 days or more until the next period. The appearance of blood signals the start of the red days, during which you’re supposed to abstain if you want to avoid pregnancy because you can ovulate during bleeding and you would miss the mucus sign if you also had seminal fluid in there.
 
I have a question. Has anybody ever used the new devices out on the market (I have forgotten the names) that predict fertility…they are advertised to conceive…but you could use them not to also…I would think…if they are reliable, along with NFP…to be double double sure…
 
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Lillith:
I have a question. Has anybody ever used the new devices out on the market (I have forgotten the names) that predict fertility…they are advertised to conceive…but you could use them not to also…I would think…if they are reliable, along with NFP…to be double double sure…
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Ovulation predictor kits are not a substitute for NFP because they only register when ovulation is very close. They also only register that the hormones are increasing, not that ovulation has actually occurred. Presence of mucus can make a woman fertile days before an OPK would register she is ovulating.

Great for conceiving, not so great for avoiding. But, you could use them in conjunction with NFP-- I believe the Marquette Method uses an OPK or some sort of electronic fertility monitor.
 
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