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Mannyfit75
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The Jews understand the difference between veneration and worship (adoration). A pious Jew kisses the Mezuza on his door post, he kisses his prayer shawl before putting it on, he kisses the tallenin, before he binds them to his forehead, and arm. He kisses the Torah before he reads it in the Synagogue. No doubt, Christ did likewise, when reading the Scriptures in the Synagogue.The Early Christians also understood this distinction as well. In the Martyrdom of Polycarp (who was St. John the Apostle’s disciple, and whose Martyrdom was recorded by the faithful of his Church, who were eyewitnesses of all that it recounts), we are told of how some sought to have the Roman magistrate keep the Christians from retrieving the body of the Holy Martyr
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Mannyfit75
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Mannyfit75
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Ah, but we do find them in the Scriptures—plenty of them! Consider how prevalent they were in the Tabernacle and then later in the Temple. There were images of cherubim:
On the Ark—Ex. 25:18
On the Curtains of the Tabernacle—Ex. 26:1
On the Veil of the Holy of Holies—Ex. 26:31
Two huge Cherubim in the Sanctuary—1st Kings 6:23
On the Walls—1st Kings 6:29
On the Doors—1st Kings 6:32
And on the furnishings—1st Kings 7:29,36
In short, there were Icons everywhere you turned.
“[the priests who serve in the Temple in Jerusalem] serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount” (Hebrews 8:5; cf. Exodus 25:40).
Before Christ came in the flesh and triumphed over death by His Resurrection, the Saints of the Old Testament were not in the presence of God in Heaven, but were in Sheol (often translated as “the grave”, and translated as “hades” in Greek). Before Christ’s Resurrection, Sheol was the destiny of both the just and the unjust (Genesis 37:35; Isaiah 38:10), though their lot there was by no means the same. As we see in Christ’s parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31; cf. Enoch 22:8-15 [although the book of Enoch is not included in the Canon of Holy Scripture, it is a venerable part of Holy Tradition and is quoted in the Epistle of St. Jude, as well as in many of the writings of the holy fathers]) there was a gulf that separated the just from the unjust, and while the righteous were in a state of blessedness, the wicked were (and are) in a state of torment—the righteous awaited their deliverance through Christ’s Resurrection, while the wicked fearfully awaited their judgment. Thus under the old covenant, prayers were said only for the departed, because they were not yet in heaven to intercede on our behalves. For as St. Paul said to the Hebrews when speaking of the Old Testament Saints, “And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us” (Hebrews 11:39-40). In Hebrews 12, St. Paul goes on to contrast the nature of the Old Covenant (12:18ff) with that of the New (12:22ff)—and among the distinctions he makes, he says that in the New Covenant we "are come unto… the spirits of just men made perfect (12:22-23). As both the Scriptures and the rest of Holy Tradition tell us, while Christ’s body lay in the tomb, His Spirit descended into Sheol and proclaimed liberty to the captives (Ephesians 4:8-10; 1st Peter 3:19, 4:6; cf. Matthew 27:52-53). And these Saints that have triumphed over this world, now reign with Christ in Glory (2nd Timothy 2:12), and continually offer up prayers for us before the Lord (Revelation 5:8; the Martyrdom of St. Ignatius, Ch. 7 [St. Ignatius was one of the disciples of the Apostle John, and was made Bishop of Antioch by him]).Thus, while in the Old Covenant, the Temple imaged heaven with only the attending Cherubim, in the New Covenant, our Temples image heaven with the great cloud of witnesses that now reside in glory there.
On the Ark—Ex. 25:18
On the Curtains of the Tabernacle—Ex. 26:1
On the Veil of the Holy of Holies—Ex. 26:31
Two huge Cherubim in the Sanctuary—1st Kings 6:23
On the Walls—1st Kings 6:29
On the Doors—1st Kings 6:32
And on the furnishings—1st Kings 7:29,36
In short, there were Icons everywhere you turned.
- Why were there only Icons of Cherubim, and not of Saints?
“[the priests who serve in the Temple in Jerusalem] serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount” (Hebrews 8:5; cf. Exodus 25:40).
Before Christ came in the flesh and triumphed over death by His Resurrection, the Saints of the Old Testament were not in the presence of God in Heaven, but were in Sheol (often translated as “the grave”, and translated as “hades” in Greek). Before Christ’s Resurrection, Sheol was the destiny of both the just and the unjust (Genesis 37:35; Isaiah 38:10), though their lot there was by no means the same. As we see in Christ’s parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31; cf. Enoch 22:8-15 [although the book of Enoch is not included in the Canon of Holy Scripture, it is a venerable part of Holy Tradition and is quoted in the Epistle of St. Jude, as well as in many of the writings of the holy fathers]) there was a gulf that separated the just from the unjust, and while the righteous were in a state of blessedness, the wicked were (and are) in a state of torment—the righteous awaited their deliverance through Christ’s Resurrection, while the wicked fearfully awaited their judgment. Thus under the old covenant, prayers were said only for the departed, because they were not yet in heaven to intercede on our behalves. For as St. Paul said to the Hebrews when speaking of the Old Testament Saints, “And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us” (Hebrews 11:39-40). In Hebrews 12, St. Paul goes on to contrast the nature of the Old Covenant (12:18ff) with that of the New (12:22ff)—and among the distinctions he makes, he says that in the New Covenant we "are come unto… the spirits of just men made perfect (12:22-23). As both the Scriptures and the rest of Holy Tradition tell us, while Christ’s body lay in the tomb, His Spirit descended into Sheol and proclaimed liberty to the captives (Ephesians 4:8-10; 1st Peter 3:19, 4:6; cf. Matthew 27:52-53). And these Saints that have triumphed over this world, now reign with Christ in Glory (2nd Timothy 2:12), and continually offer up prayers for us before the Lord (Revelation 5:8; the Martyrdom of St. Ignatius, Ch. 7 [St. Ignatius was one of the disciples of the Apostle John, and was made Bishop of Antioch by him]).Thus, while in the Old Covenant, the Temple imaged heaven with only the attending Cherubim, in the New Covenant, our Temples image heaven with the great cloud of witnesses that now reside in glory there.
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Truthstalker
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JaneFrances
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Me neither??? I actually had not even read the canons of this synod before tonight. So, I’m interested to know how one statement disallowing artistic imagery displayed within a church is helpful in this discussion.
I can imagine it was gunpowder!
I do not doubt that the sense of “pictura” is much broader than even you have indicated. However, I still am at a loss in trying to understand how iconoclasm pertains to the issues of dulia and latria.
I’ll tune in when you do!
Whose?
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Truthstalker
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Not satisfied with what I was coming up with as an explanation, I looked over the only argument I could recall, found in Calvin’s Institutes, Book I, chapters 11 and 12, and in particular chapter 11, section 6. The argument, I think, is that the introduction of images in of themselves is an error, quoting Augustine quoting Varro, and that the use of images invariably leads to idolatry. “The human mind is a perpetual forge of idols” is found in section 8 of chapter 11. I won’t attempt to reproduce the logic because of a bias: the margins of my mark-up copy have things like question marks, “can’t find source”, “non-sequit” and “wrong!” in it.
Concerning Canon 36, I think Calvin’s argument is that this is a demonstration of the traditions of the church of that time, to not have images on the walls, and that Augustine was against images in church, as it led to idolatry.
After some reflection I’m thinking that to settle the OP I would have to learn the ins and outs of the iconoclast controversy, which I have admittedly not studied, in which probably all of this was gone over many times, in addition to other material. and the church wound up where it is at today.
For those wondering, I don’t think the use of an image automatically leads to idolatry. When I wrote the OP, I thought I was raising something from the wreckage of what I have done in studying Calvin’s Institutes, and that there was something there. I still think there is something there. Exactly what, I will need to think on.
The thread on “Worshipping the Virgin of Guadalupe” may have some bearing. See forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=132025
Concerning Canon 36, I think Calvin’s argument is that this is a demonstration of the traditions of the church of that time, to not have images on the walls, and that Augustine was against images in church, as it led to idolatry.
After some reflection I’m thinking that to settle the OP I would have to learn the ins and outs of the iconoclast controversy, which I have admittedly not studied, in which probably all of this was gone over many times, in addition to other material. and the church wound up where it is at today.
For those wondering, I don’t think the use of an image automatically leads to idolatry. When I wrote the OP, I thought I was raising something from the wreckage of what I have done in studying Calvin’s Institutes, and that there was something there. I still think there is something there. Exactly what, I will need to think on.
The thread on “Worshipping the Virgin of Guadalupe” may have some bearing. See forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=132025
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Alexius
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A major weakness in Calvinism - too much reliance on Augustine.
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
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Mannyfit75
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What words did Augustine say that he was against the use of images?A major weakness in Calvinism - too much reliance on Augustine.
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
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Legal_Eagle
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Look, you smart guys can quote all the Latin, Calvin and this counsel or that counsel that you want to. For me it’s a very simple matter.
- You can’t judge the state of another person’s heart.
- We give honor to human beings and created objects all the time and nobody thinks a thing about it. We put our daddy’s pocket knives in shadow boxes over our fireplaces. We stand up when a judge enters the courtroom. We carve the faces of our Presidents into mountains. Listen, if you can pledge your allegiance to a peice of red white and blue cloth with your hand over your heart (for cryin’ out loud) I can kneel before a statue of the Mother of my Savior and ask for her prayers. So there.
- No one is going to take a gun and make you kneel and pray the Holy Rosary before a statue of the Blessed Mother. You don’t go for that sort of thing? By all means don’t do it.
- There is nothing I love more than to fix my eyes on the crucifix when I’m kneeling during Mass. Sometimes it even brings me to tears. But I know that Jesus is not in that statue. He at the right hand of the Father. He is on the alter. He is in the person of the priest. He is in the people kneeling all around me. He is in me. But it is the crucifix that brings my mind into sharpest focus.
- If one of my Baptist golf buddies saw what I was doing, tears running down my face, staring at the corpus on the cross, he would probably fall over in fits screaming “Idolatry!!!” But that’s not what’s going on with me. If those folks walking on their knees to St. Juan Diego’s tilma in Mexico City are sinners, then thats between them and their Bishop. It’s above my pay-grade. So I’ll just give them the benefit of the doubt. Someone once said something about not judging others and not being judged yourself.
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Alexius
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I don’t know…I was just saying that Calvin relied too much on Augustine.
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
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Vigis
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I am even accused of idol worshiping when I bend down to pick the Mardi Gras beads off of the ground at parades. People who think worship is just mere acts of bowing, crying and other things of such should be ashamed. There is no way around that. God speed.
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Truthstalker
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Truthstalker
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People bow down to drinking fountains all the time. O Great fountain, be unto me rivers of living water, I usually say.
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Truthstalker
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Truthstalker
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Ok, so here’s the question: how much should Augustine be relied on?A major weakness in Calvinism - too much reliance on Augustine.
Prayers and petitions,
Alexius
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