Another Sad Rcia Note

[palmas85]

I have posted several times concerning the things being taught at a good friend of mines RCIA class. The class is apparently studying or hearing lectures on church history. According to my friend here is what was said at one of their latest classes…

1 Martin Luther had a vision of the future and only prepared the way for todays church, so he should never be condemned, but rather thanked for his positive contributions to the Catholic faith today.

2 The greatest sin of the 20th century was without a doubt the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and all Americans should humbly apologize to their Japanese borthers and sisters for this war crime.

3 Cuba, because of it’s unique, tolerant and humanitarian form of givernment is able to provide schooling and free medical care to all, and should be held as a model to all other nations, especially those of the west.

The person giving the lecture is supposedly the head of the Catechal Department at the Parish, and develops the catechism and curriculum for all catechisis at the parish
.
Now I’m really not an expert on these issues, but something really doesn’t sound right here. I’ve posted several other times but this one really seems to take the cake.

 

[dumspirospero]

This is just sick…it is morally and intellectually offensive…this teacher is intellectually bankrupt and doesn’t have a clue as to what they are teaching…this is a shame…and people wonder why people leave the faith…

palmas85:

I have posted several times concerning the things being taught at a good friend of mines RCIA class. The class is apparently studying or hearing lectures on church history. According to my friend here is what was said at one of their latest classes…

1 Martin Luther had a vision of the future and only prepared the way for todays church, so he should never be condemned, but rather thanked for his positive contributions to the Catholic faith today.

2 The greatest sin of the 20th century was without a doubt the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and all Americans should humbly apologize to their Japanese borthers and sisters for this war crime.

3 Cuba, because of it’s unique, tolerant and humanitarian form of givernment is able to provide schooling and free medical care to all, and should be held as a model to all other nations, especially those of the west.

The person giving the lecture is supposedly the head of the Catechal Department at the Parish, and develops the catechism and curriculum for all catechisis at the parish
.
Now I’m really not an expert on these issues, but something really doesn’t sound right here. I’ve posted several other times but this one really seems to take the cake.

 

[JCPhoenix]

The whole point of RCIA is to teach the Catholic Faith, not 20th Century America.

Sounds like “Spirit of Vatican II” dissident social relativist non-theology to me.

I"m constantly amazed by the people who call themselves “Catechists”.

Do you know the name of this alleged catechist, and can you post it here or send me an e-mail on it? Maybe I can do a little background on him/her. (no promises, I’m limited)

 

[Walking_Home]

Please tell your friend to find another church, once she is done with RCIA.
I get the feeling it is just going to get worse.

 

[Toni]

JCPhoenix:

The whole point of RCIA is to teach the Catholic Faith, not 20th Century America.

Sounds like “Spirit of Vatican II” dissident social relativist non-theology to me.

I"m constantly amazed by the people who call themselves “Catechists”.

Wow don’t get me going I sat through this **** in the summer and was amazed at some of the teachings that I heard. Church History may include Martin Luther but not as a hero. He did hold us accountable for some of the corruptions in the Church back then but we cleaned our house. Hiroshima, Cuba what in the world do they have to do with Church History?

 

[rwoehmke]

This is not an RCIA class, it is political science. It amounts to bringing people into the Church under false pretenses. How does it happen that a parish would hire or accept a volunteer that so obviously has no idea as to what they should be doing? Are they that disperate for warm bodies? God have mercy on the pastor who allows this travesty.

 

[paramedicgirl]

This stuff should be documented and sent to the bishop. Maybe he has no idea it is going on. It’s too bad there aren’t enough priests to teach RCIA and Catechism.

 

[Walking_Home]

paramedicgirl:

This stuff should be documented and sent to the bishop. Maybe he has no idea it is going on. It’s too bad there aren’t enough priests to teach RCIA and Catechism.

And if the Bishop will not correct this, then send all the documentation to the Vatican.

 

[Peace-bwu]

Distressing to say the least, How frustrating! Perhaps your friend can find another parish?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

palmas85:

I have posted several times concerning the things being taught at a good friend of mines RCIA class. The class is apparently studying or hearing lectures on church history. According to my friend here is what was said at one of their latest classes…

1 Martin Luther had a vision of the future and only prepared the way for todays church, so he should never be condemned, but rather thanked for his positive contributions to the Catholic faith today.

2 The greatest sin of the 20th century was without a doubt the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and all Americans should humbly apologize to their Japanese borthers and sisters for this war crime.

3 Cuba, because of it’s unique, tolerant and humanitarian form of givernment is able to provide schooling and free medical care to all, and should be held as a model to all other nations, especially those of the west.

Sounds like the Newman Club/“Let’s embrace every left-leaning cause we possibly can” society when I was at school in the 80’s.
Campus Mass was a trip, they talked about the Sandinistas and Nicaraugua more than they did about about Our Lord. If we’d been asked to draw a picture of the Savior, I’m sure He would have looked like Che Guevera.

Can your friend find another parish?

 

[Ghosty]

Unless the bombing of Nagasaki was being used as an illustration of immoral use of force according to Catholic doctrine, it was out of place. Given the fact that Cuba was also hailed as a model country, I have no reason to believe that a balanced presentation of Catholic “Just War” doctrine was being presented.

For what it’s worth, though, the bombing of Nagasaki, and possibly Hiroshima as well, were indeed against Catholic doctrine. I doubt it was presented in the proper context, though.

Peace and God bless!

 

[GregoryPalamas]

Ghosty,

In all fairness, most things that go on in wars are against Catholic doctrine and are rightly condemned. In most cases involving wars choices between bad and worse are very often made. In 1945 the choice confronting the allies was this: Do we attack Japan with conventional forces and probably kill a million on each side? Or do we drop two bombs and kill 200,000 - 300,000 Japanese and end the war? It was a horrific decision. Rather than condemn those who had to make it let us condemn humankinds unwillingness to turn to Christ who is the Word and Reason of God.

Is there really any other out to war?

CDL

 

[Wolseley]

1 Martin Luther had a vision of the future and only prepared the way for todays church, so he should never be condemned, but rather thanked for his positive contributions to the Catholic faith today.

Martin Luther’s main contribution to Christian history was to rip the Church apart because of his rebellion and his stubborness in refusing to obey legitimate ecclesiastical authority. Whatever else his merits or failings, no one can deny this.

2 The greatest sin of the 20th century was without a doubt the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and all Americans should humbly apologize to their Japanese borthers and sisters for this war crime.

And Hiroshima and Nagasaki never would have happened if there hadn’t been a little thing called Pearl Harbor, where 2,000 innocent Americans were butchered in cold-blooded murder, due to the fact that there was no state of war between the United States and the Japanese Empire—and no Japanese citizen, to my knowledge, has ever apologized to America for that war crime.

3 Cuba, because of it’s unique, tolerant and humanitarian form of givernment is able to provide schooling and free medical care to all, and should be held as a model to all other nations, especially those of the west.

Do they believe Fidel’s regime is tolerant and humanitarian because it oppresses the Church, or because it’s so restrictive that people are willing to travel 90 miles over open ocean in leaky boats to get away from it? I mean, if Cuba is such a paradise, and America is so bad (having bombed Japan and all), why aren’t they in leaky boats paddling their way out of Florida on their way to Havana?

The person giving the lecture is supposedly the head of the Catechal Department at the Parish, and develops the catechism and curriculum for all catechisis at the parish

And let me guess: this is person is in his/her mid to late 50’s, encourages liturgical experimentation, opposes the hierarchical nature of the Church, is a liberal Democrat, used to read books by Abbie Hoffmann, and wistfully reminisces about the wonderfulness of the 1960’s on a fairly regular basis, correct?
.

Now I’m really not an expert on these issues, but something really doesn’t sound right here.

Ya THINK???

 

[Celia]

Well, that’s officially ridiculous, Palmas. Has your friend talked with his priest? Or bishop? He needs to say something. I had too, about our program, cause it ain’t far from your friend’s experience, unfortunately.

What is wrong with RCIA in this country?? Something seriously needs to be addressed on this. We have converts learning that Martin Luther is a hero! Lord have mercy.

 

[Ghosty]

GregoryPalamas:

Ghosty,

In all fairness, most things that go on in wars are against Catholic doctrine and are rightly condemned. In most cases involving wars choices between bad and worse are very often made. In 1945 the choice confronting the allies was this: Do we attack Japan with conventional forces and probably kill a million on each side? Or do we drop two bombs and kill 200,000 - 300,000 Japanese and end the war? It was a horrific decision. Rather than condemn those who had to make it let us condemn humankinds unwillingness to turn to Christ who is the Word and Reason of God.

Is there really any other out to war?

CDL

Without wanting to turn this into a debate on the just practice of war, it suffices to say that in Catholic teaching one can never commit an intrinsically evil act (intentionally targeting civilians) so that good can result (saving lives in a potential invasion). All wars have bad effects (civilian casualties), but that is not the same as an intrinsically evil action (targeting civilians). It’s not a matter of choosing “bad” or “worse”, but of actively embracing evil versus fighting against it. No military victory gives justice to intrinsically evil actions; it’s Christ’s blood that saves, not soldiers’ or civilians’.

I’m not a pacifist by any means. I just want to point out that Nagasaki can indeed serve as a valid moral lesson for American Catholics. With that I’d like to drop discussing it on this thread, so as not to hijack it. I’d be happy to go at length in another thread though.

 

[MusicMan]

If Martin Luther’s actions were the catalyst that caused the Church to clean-up problems and corruption within it at the time, it is not unreasonable to acknowledge this. This would need to be proven, however.

The other points are just a bunch of bunk. Find another parish.

 

[SFH]

Ghosty:

For what it’s worth, though, the bombing of Nagasaki, and possibly Hiroshima as well, were indeed against Catholic doctrine. I doubt it was presented in the proper context, though.

Peace and God bless!

You never heard that from a Pope.

 

[RobNY]

As for Cuba, communism is specifically denied, no, shredded into little pieces, in Rerum Novarum. Perhaps he needs to take a little quick peak at that encyclical?

1. To remedy these wrongs the socialists, working on the poor man’s envy of the rich, are striving to do away with private property, and contend that individual possessions should become the common property of all, to be administered by the State or by municipal bodies. They hold that by thus transferring property from private individuals to the community, the present mischievous state of things will be set to rights, inasmuch as each citizen will then get his fair share of whatever there is to enjoy. But their contentions are so clearly powerless to end the controversy that were they carried into effect the working man himself would be among the first to suffer. They are, moreover, emphatically unjust, for they would rob the lawful possessor, distort the functions of the State, and create utter confusion in the community.

1. What is of far greater moment, however, is the fact that the remedy they propose is manifestly against justice. For, every man has by nature the right to possess property as his own. This is one of the chief points of distinction between man and the animal creation, for the brute has no power of self direction, but is governed by two main instincts, which keep his powers on the alert, impel him to develop them in a fitting manner, and stimulate and determine him to action without any power of choice.

**Hence, man not only should possess the fruits of the earth, but also the very soil, inasmuch as from the produce of the earth he has to lay by provision for the future. **Man’s needs do not die out, but forever recur; although satisfied today, they demand fresh supplies for tomorrow. Nature accordingly must have given to man a source that is stable and remaining always with him, from which he might look to draw continual supplies. And this stable condition of things he finds solely in the earth and its fruits. There is no need to bring in the State. Man precedes the State, and possesses, prior to the formation of any State, the right of providing for the substance of his body.

Here, again, we have further proof that private ownership is in accordance with the law of nature.

1. So strong and convincing are these arguments that it seems amazing that some should now be setting up anew certain obsolete opinions in opposition to what is here laid down. They assert that it is right for private persons to have the use of the soil and its various fruits, but that it is unjust for any one to possess outright either the land on which he has built or the estate which he has brought under cultivation. But those who deny these rights do not perceive that they are defrauding man of what his own labor has produced.

That’s not to say, of course, that it supports consumerism either-- but communism is clearly a no-no.

 

[tjmiller]

If we are going to thank God for Martin Lucif - I mean, Luther - then we might as well give thanks to God for Adolf Hitler while we’re at it…

 

[LeahInancsi]

I’m currently an RCIA student. We have never had the time to get off on the wild tangents that Palmas85 mentioned. Beside the fact that our instructor would never discuss such issues.

I’m currently overwhelmed by the amount information I would like to know in order feel confident that I’m properly practicing Catholicism. Two hours a week for nine months only scratches the surface without getting side tracked on political issues.

With regard to documenting the information discussed in RCIA classes, our classes are recorded on DVD to be viewed by people who missed a class or anyone wanting a second viewing of the class.