Another Vatican 2 thread

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I would like to make this clear, I am not attacking Vatican 2, I just have a question about it. I am not looking to condemn Vatican 2, nor set up a war. Please don’t mention the SSPX as that is what usually happens on these types of threads. Admins, please lock this thread if it gets out of hand. If possible, don’t remove it if it does get bad so it can serve as a reminder to those who want to have a similar post. If I am in the wrong category, please move it into the right one.

Whenever I do look to see on whether V2 is infallible (I know it is, but I like to go in depth), but I come across quotes like the following which makes me confused (I still believe Vatican 2 is infallible though)
  1. “Differing from other Councils, this one was not directly dogmatic, but disciplinary and pastoral”. --Pope Paul VI, August 6, 1975, General Audience
  2. “Today we are concluding the Second Vatican Council…But one thing must be noted here, namely, that the teaching authority of the Church, even though not wishing to issue extraordinary dogmatic pronouncements…”
Pope Paul VI, Address of the last general meeting of the Council, Dec. 7, 1965
  1. “There are those who ask what authority, what theological qualification, the Council intended to give its teachings, knowing that it avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions backed by the church’s infallible teaching authority. The answer is known by those who remember the conciliar declaration of March 6, 1964. In view of the pastoral nature of the Council, it avoided proclaiming in any extraordinary manner any dogmas carrying the mark of infallibility.”
Pope Paul VI, General Audience of Dec. 1, 1966
  1. “Taking into account conciliar practice and the pastoral purpose of the present council, the sacred synod defined as binding on the Church only those matters of faith and morals which it has expressly put forward as such.”
Addendum of Nov. 16, 1964 (alluded to by Paul VI above in quote #3) in the Explanatory Note to Lumen Gentium.

So would Canon 752 come into play?
Canon 752
“While the assent of faith is not required, a religious submission of intellect and will is to be given to any doctrine which either the Supreme Pontiff or the College of Bishops, exercising their authentic Magisterium, declare upon a matter of faith and morals, even though they do not intend to proclaim that doctrine by definitive act. Christ’s faithful are therefore to ensure that they avoid whatever does not accord with that doctrine.”

My second question would be more oriented towards those who reject Vatican 2 (which I do not) Why are the Lateran councils (that proclaimed no dogma or doctrine) infallible, but Vatican 2 isn’t? That is a question that has me wondering about the sedes (not SSPX as +Fellay did say that the SSPX does accept 95% of Vatican 2. I would thing the other 5% is being discussed) since they are the weirdest for their logic.
 
Fellay did say that the SSPX does accept 95% of Vatican 2. I would thing the other 5% is being discussed
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I would like to know what that 5% is.

And good one.
Cant wait for the Catholic Answer. 😃
 
PopePiusXIISupp said:
I would like to make this clear, I am not attacking Vatican 2, I just have a question about it. I am not looking to condemn Vatican 2, nor set up a war. Please don’t mention the SSPX as that is what usually happens on these types of threads. Admins, please lock this thread if it gets out of hand. If possible, don’t remove it if it does get bad so it can serve as a reminder to those who want to have a similar post. If I am in the wrong category, please move it into the right one.

Whenever I do look to see on whether V2 is infallible (I know it is, but I like to go in depth), but I come across quotes like the following which makes me confused (I still believe Vatican 2 is infallible though)
  1. “Differing from other Councils, this one was not directly dogmatic, but disciplinary and pastoral”. --Pope Paul VI, August 6, 1975, General Audience
  2. “Today we are concluding the Second Vatican Council…But one thing must be noted here, namely, that the teaching authority of the Church, even though not wishing to issue extraordinary dogmatic pronouncements…”
Pope Paul VI, Address of the last general meeting of the Council, Dec. 7, 1965
  1. “There are those who ask what authority, what theological qualification, the Council intended to give its teachings, knowing that it avoided issuing solemn dogmatic definitions backed by the church’s infallible teaching authority. The answer is known by those who remember the conciliar declaration of March 6, 1964. In view of the pastoral nature of the Council, it avoided proclaiming in any extraordinary manner any dogmas carrying the mark of infallibility.”
Pope Paul VI, General Audience of Dec. 1, 1966
  1. “Taking into account conciliar practice and the pastoral purpose of the present council, the sacred synod defined as binding on the Church only those matters of faith and morals which it has expressly put forward as such.”
Addendum of Nov. 16, 1964 (alluded to by Paul VI above in quote #3) in the Explanatory Note to Lumen Gentium.

So would Canon 752 come into play?
Canon 752
“While the assent of faith is not required, a religious submission of intellect and will is to be given to any doctrine which either the Supreme Pontiff or the College of Bishops, exercising their authentic Magisterium, declare upon a matter of faith and morals, even though they do not intend to proclaim that doctrine by definitive act. Christ’s faithful are therefore to ensure that they avoid whatever does not accord with that doctrine.”

My second question would be more oriented towards those who reject Vatican 2 (which I do not) Why are the Lateran councils (that proclaimed no dogma or doctrine) infallible, but Vatican 2 isn’t? That is a question that has me wondering about the sedes (not SSPX as +Fellay did say that the SSPX does accept 95% of Vatican 2. I would thing the other 5% is being discussed) since they are the weirdest for their logic.
Click to expand...
so much for not mentioning SSPX 🤷
 
Thanks for the clarification from BrotherJR. May God bless him, and may God bless all who visit this thread.
amen.
 
Well that 5% must be really toxic because I am the only one on both sides of my family that is still Catholic post V2. I didn’t grow up in the chaos, I was yanked from it. Only came to know about it as an adult. Its also enough to have kept me from reverting, I am now in an Eastern branch.
 
Casilda said:
Well that 5% must be really toxic because I am the only one on both sides of my family that is still Catholic post V2.
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The “5%” mostly consists in teachings on Ecumenism and Religious Liberty.
 
OP, Councils aren’t infallible, only specific statements in the documents that they issue are.

So, for example, when the Third Lateran Council stated that,
Following the footsteps of our predecessors of happy memory, popes Innocent and Eugenius, we forbid those abominable jousts and fairs, which are commonly called tournaments, in which knights come together by agreement and rashly engage in showing off their physical prowess and daring, and which often result in human deaths and danger to souls. If any of them dies on these occasions, although forgiveness {16 } is not to be denied him when he requests it, he is to be deprived of a church burial.
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… this was not an infallible declaration of doctrine.

But Canon 2 of the Fourth Lateran Council DID contain an infallible exposition of the nature of the Blessed Trinity, and Canon 3 anathematized those who hold to heretical views on the subject.

And there’s lots in Vatican II that is infallible. For example, Dei Verbum states that,
Those divinely revealed realities which are contained and presented in Sacred Scripture have been committed to writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
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… and that statement is infallible. But it’s not infallible BECAUSE it is here taught, but because this document is repeating an infallibly known truth which was previously taught.

So to sum up, some portions of the Lateran Councils are infallible, others aren’t. And some portions of Vatican II are infallible, while others aren’t.

What certain groups believe is that there are some very few new teachings in Vatican II which both contradict the previous Magisterium and which are not stated infallibly.

This is how one answers your Lateran vs. Vatican II question.
 
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