Answering my protestant friend

[brian614]

I am starting this thread to ask fellow Catholics help me answer a protestant friend I have not seen for awhile who is working for some charity over in China. He is a great guy who truly loves Christ. But he has had pretty much no exposure to the Catholic faith…

So I am trying to answer some questions for him, they are questions that I am sure most of you have had with some of your protestant friends… I just want to answer his questions really fully and accurately…

I would appreciate if a few of you would follow this thread and help me answer some of his concerns, I can answer most of his questions but it’s always nice to see some other perspectives that may be more either biblical or convincing

We are chatting via Facebook and here is his last post:

Dude thanks for getting back to me so quickly. I appreciate hearing the reasons for why Catholics do certain things.

I do have some thoughts. Although I understand your reasoning for believing saints to be alive and in God’s presence there isn’t scripture that tells us to ask them to pray on our behalf. And I don’t see the church in Acts practicing this either. My concern would be that this could create a barrier between God and us. You mentioned that ‘saints are people who are very close to God’ but I think that all of us are close to God when we’ve accepted Jesus. He’s adopted us as His children and I don’t believe that deceased saints are any closer to God than you or I. I think of when the disciples asked Jesus how to pray and He gives us an example that starts off with ‘Our Father who art in Heaven’, showing we can pray directly to God. I also think of the verse that encourages us to enter God’s presence boldly. Lastly, I think it can be quite a powerful thing to go to someone in your church, friends or family and ask them to pray for you. It would show humility and open the door for deeper relationship, I think this bonding within the church/body of Christ could be missed if we are praying to saints. These are just my thoughts take them or leave them, but I would love to hear what you think.

Regarding Mary, yes, it seems that most of the Hail Mary is Biblical (especially the parts that describe what we know about Mary and what was said about her in Scripture) however there isn’t any scripture that tells us to pray to her or that she can pray on our behalf. I too like that Jesus asked John to be Mary’s son and Mary to be his mother. But I think this shows more about Jesus concern for His mother and not to be read beyond that, but that’s only my interpretation.

Thanks for clearing up the Infallibility thing. I don’t know if I agree that the office of Peter is passed down, I don’t see that in scripture, but I do agree with Jesus statement that on Peter He would build His church and the gates of Hell would not prevail against it.

I agree with what you said about as our jobs as Christians is to find absolute truth. And yes I also agree that we will never fully get there. And I also agree with you that Jesus established one church not tens of thousands of denominations. So what is church to you?

 

[anonymous_in_fl]

If he can get on FB in China, give him the Catholic Answers website address!
He can ask all the questions he wants and see lots of Catholic information.

 

[Ben_F]

The biggest obstacle for me, when I was a Baptist, was the concern about which one is the one true faith. Once that was cleared up all the others just fit right in. Once you know the truth, you shouldn´t even attempt to continue looking for the truth in other faiths. If you do, then, to me, that´s an indication, that you don´t really believe. I believe Lord, help my unbelief. God bless:thumbsup:

 

[Razanir]

1. There is, too, apostolic succession and the ordination of priests in the Bible! When Judas left the apostles and killed himself, they raised Matthias to replace him. Additionally, they ordained some of their disciples in Acts to a priesthood, so they could focus on evangelization instead of day-to-day functions. (I’d know, I’m reading Acts right now)
2. Here’s some more explanation for prayer to the saints, which I don’t know if you’ve mentioned. First off, at least in the Catholic use of the word, prayer is not synonymous with worship. Prayer is just a fancy word for asking for something. So with that definition, you pray to people who aren’t God all the time. Remember last week when you asked your friend to pray for you (rhetorical)? That’s the same idea. The only difference is that the saints are already in Heaven.

 

[josh987654321]

I am starting this thread to ask fellow Catholics help me answer a protestant friend …

Hi Brian.

The number one thing that I believe converts most protestants to the One Holy Catholic & Apostolic Church, is the absolute truth of the Holy Eucharist.

I also strongly recommend giving him this link to listen to Scott Hahn’s conversion story on youtube - youtube.com/watch?v=FrQN8LHYg5g

Scott Hahn has converted many Protestants to Catholicism, Scott Hahn and the absolute truth to the Holy Eucharist in John 6:41-71 converted my Father when I was young and now my friend who is currently going through RCIA to become a Roman Catholic. They both said the absolute truth of the Holy Eucharist and Scott Hahn is why they converted.

I would say Brian, focus your discussion with him on the absolute truth of the Holy Eucharist, it is there he will find the absolute truth to Catholicism.

This is Pope Francis’ homily on “Taking Risks” where he talks about the Disciples walking/turning away when they hear Jesus talk about the Holy Eucharist in John 6:41-71 - en.radiovaticana.va/articolo.asp?c=684817

I quote -

**John 6:52-53

52 The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”

53 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you.**

John 6:60-69

Many Disciples Turn Away

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a hard saying; who can understand it?”

**61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples complained about this, He said to them, “Does this offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”**

John could not have made Jesus’ teaching on the Holy Eucharist instituted at the last supper any clearer.

If your protestant friend still wishes to deny the truth of the Holy Eucharist, than I suggest providing him with these links -

Eucharistic Miracles - catholicdoors.com/misc/eu…icmiracles.htm

The Early Christians Believed in the Real Presence of Christ’s body, blood, soul and divinity in the Holy Eucharist - therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html

CAF links on the Holy Eucharist - catholic.com/tracts/the-real-presence & catholic.com/tracts/christ-in-the-eucharist

As I said above - I strongly recommend you maintain the discussion with your protestant friend on the Holy Eucharist, because it is there he will find the absolute truth to Catholicism, I also strongly recommend Scott Hahn, especially his conversion story, as Scott Hahn used to be an evangelical protestant - youtube.com/watch?v=FrQN8LHYg5g

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

 

[Gorgias]

Although I understand your reasoning for believing saints to be alive and in God’s presence there isn’t scripture that tells us to ask them to pray on our behalf.

Umm… if the saints are alive and in God’s presence, then they’re living people – Scripture tells us again and again to pray for one another, as well as demonstrates that people ask others to pray for them!

And I don’t see the church in Acts practicing this either.

Two thoughts: first, in the infancy of the Church, there were far fewer ‘dead’ saints.

Second: there are other things that you don’t see the Church practicing in Acts, either, that are practiced in Christianity these days: altar calls, preaching a ‘prosperity Gospel’, etc, etc. Are there any practices that he follows, which aren’t strictly Scriptural? If so, he can’t make this claim and hope to make it stick…

My concern would be that this could create a barrier between God and us.

Do we create a barrier between God and ourselves when we gather in prayer at church? When we raise up our voices together and pray to God and for each other? Of course not. Likewise, a prayer to any living Christian person, asking them to offer prayers on our behalf is efficacious. (However, if his point is that going only to the saints or to other people, and never to God in prayer is a bad idea, then he would be right. But, the Church has never said “go only to Mary in prayer! go only to the saints in prayer!”. If anyone (mistakenly) does so, then it’s our Christian duty to help correct their misunderstanding.)

I think it can be quite a powerful thing to go to someone in your church, friends or family and ask them to pray for you. It would show humility and open the door for deeper relationship, I think this bonding within the church/body of Christ could be missed if we are praying to saints.

He’s so close to ‘getting it’! The point is that the dead in Christ – those faithful departed now in God’s presence – are part of the church, and of the body of Christ! We don’t “miss bonding within the church” when we pray for their intercession! Rather, as he suggests, this actually draws us into deeper relationship with this portion of the Church!

however there isn’t any scripture that tells us to pray to her or that she can pray on our behalf.

On the other hand, what do parents – and especially mothers – do for their children? There are many instances in which parents interceded on behalf of their children to the Lord (Jairus’ father, the royal official, the Syrophonecian woman whose daughter was possessed, the parents (in Mark 9) who bring their possessed child to Jesus), or whose grief moves Jesus (the widow of Nain). The witness of the Gospels is precisely that mothers and fathers bring their children to Jesus for healing! When Jesus speaks to Mary and John at the foot of the cross, it’s not just for Mary’s benefit, but for John’s! It shows a lot more than only “concern for His mother,” but for his apostle (and through him, for us)!

Thanks for clearing up the Infallibility thing. I don’t know if I agree that the office of Peter is passed down, I don’t see that in scripture, but I do agree with Jesus statement that on Peter He would build His church and the gates of Hell would not prevail against it.

The alternative is unthinkable, though, wouldn’t you say? “Hi, guys! Hey, I’m going to give you all authority on earth, but you know what? Once you die, the authority dies with you. Instead, I’m going to pass all authority on to a book – which hasn’t been written, and which you don’t know anything about – and let that be the sole authority from now on. Moreover, once your authority dies, there won’t be any voice which has the authority to interpret this book (that – shh! – you don’t know anything about!), so we’ll go from a situation in which the Living Son of God is among His people, to a situation in which the authority of the Logos rests on his apostles, to a situation in which there’s no authoritative interpreter of my message. Remember that whole situation at the end of Judges, when ‘everyone did what was right in their own sight’…? That worked out so well for the Israelites, that I think we’ll repeat it all over again, ok?”

Seriously, though: if Jesus gave His proxy to His apostles, and if the apostles appointed leaders to replace one another upon their deaths, then the apostolic action of providing apostolic succession fits within the command of Jesus! The apostles’ actions – including the establishment of succession (including Petrine succession) – fits within the scope of the authority Jesus gave them! If you claim otherwise, then you claim that Jesus didn’t mean what He said, when He gave the apostles the power to bind and loose!

 

[SAVINGRACE]

“Regarding Mary, yes, it seems that most of the Hail Mary is Biblical (especially the parts that describe what we know about Mary and what was said about her in Scripture) however there isn’t any scripture that tells us to pray to her or that she can pray on our behalf. I too like that Jesus asked John to be Mary’s son and Mary to be his mother. But I think this shows more about Jesus concern for His mother and not to be read beyond that, but that’s only my interpretation”

Ask your friend where does he get his ‘infallibility’ for his interpretation from?

If he answers the Holy Spirit guides him in his interpretation then advise him that he also thinks that he himself is infallible for the Holy Spirit cannot be the author of confusion. Same thing if he answers that his church elders interpret scripture or it’s his church official doctrine.

He can’t have it both ways. He can’t say the Pope and the Magisterium are not infallible when they define Doctrine i.e. interpret scripture. Then in the next breath say that he interprets scripture himself. We all know that the Holy Spirit guides all Doctrine formulation otherwise what would be the point. He cannot say he interpreted the verses himself with no help from the Holy Spirit.

If he concedes that the Holy Spirit guides him when he interprets the Bible then there you have it, he considers himself ‘infallible’ because the Holy Spirit is guiding him and the Holy Spirit does not lie.

Let him mull on that for a while and then ask him where he gets his authority from?Where does his authority to interpret and teach Scripture come from and where has it been for the first 1000 years of Christianity?

 

[brian614]

1. Here’s some more explanation for prayer to the saints, which I don’t know if you’ve mentioned. First off, at least in the Catholic use of the word, prayer is not synonymous with worship. Prayer is just a fancy word for asking for something. So with that definition, you pray to people who aren’t God all the time. Remember last week when you asked your friend to pray for you (rhetorical)? That’s the same idea. The only difference is that the saints are already in Heaven.

Thanks, yea I brought up how we always ask others to pray for us so why not those that are in heaven because we believe that they are alive (Our God is a God of the living not the dead)
Also I did say Catholics worship only God…

Thanks for the posts so far, I will send him a message this weekend or Monday, and let you guys know the response… I really do appreciate the help and God bless

 

[brian614]

Hi Brian.

The number one thing that I believe converts most protestants to the One Holy Catholic & Apostolic Church, is the absolute truth of the Holy Eucharist.

I also strongly recommend giving him this link to listen to Scott Hahn’s conversion story on youtube - youtube.com/watch?v=FrQN8LHYg5g

Scott Hahn has converted many Protestants to Catholicism, Scott Hahn and the absolute truth to the Holy Eucharist in John 6:41-71 converted my Father when I was young and now my friend who is currently going through RCIA to become a Roman Catholic. They both said the absolute truth of the Holy Eucharist and Scott Hahn is why they converted.

I would say Brian, focus your discussion with him on the absolute truth of the Holy Eucharist, it is there he will find the absolute truth to Catholicism.

This is Pope Francis’ homily on “Taking Risks” where he talks about the Disciples walking/turning away when they hear Jesus talk about the Holy Eucharist in John 6:41-71 - en.radiovaticana.va/articolo.asp?c=684817

I quote -

John could not have made Jesus’ teaching on the Holy Eucharist instituted at the last supper any clearer.

If your protestant friend still wishes to deny the truth of the Holy Eucharist, than I suggest providing him with these links -

Eucharistic Miracles - catholicdoors.com/misc/eu…icmiracles.htm

The Early Christians Believed in the Real Presence of Christ’s body, blood, soul and divinity in the Holy Eucharist - therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.html

CAF links on the Holy Eucharist - catholic.com/tracts/the-real-presence & catholic.com/tracts/christ-in-the-eucharist

As I said above - I strongly recommend you maintain the discussion with your protestant friend on the Holy Eucharist, because it is there he will find the absolute truth to Catholicism, I also strongly recommend Scott Hahn, especially his conversion story, as Scott Hahn used to be an evangelical protestant - youtube.com/watch?v=FrQN8LHYg5g

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh

Thanks Josh, in my last message in which this was a response to I asked him what his views where on the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist… Oddly he hasn’t answered yet, but I think that the Eucharist is the heart of our Church and I will follow up again… Also thanks for the Scott Hahn reference, I will make sure to pass it along

 

[brian614]

Umm… if the saints are alive and in God’s presence, then they’re living people – Scripture tells us again and again to pray for one another, as well as demonstrates that people ask others to pray for them!

Two thoughts: first, in the infancy of the Church, there were far fewer ‘dead’ saints.

Second: there are other things that you don’t see the Church practicing in Acts, either, that are practiced in Christianity these days: altar calls, preaching a ‘prosperity Gospel’, etc, etc. Are there any practices that he follows, which aren’t strictly Scriptural? If so, he can’t make this claim and hope to make it stick…

Do we create a barrier between God and ourselves when we gather in prayer at church? When we raise up our voices together and pray to God and for each other? Of course not. Likewise, a prayer to any living Christian person, asking them to offer prayers on our behalf is efficacious. (However, if his point is that going only to the saints or to other people, and never to God in prayer is a bad idea, then he would be right. But, the Church has never said “go only to Mary in prayer! go only to the saints in prayer!”. If anyone (mistakenly) does so, then it’s our Christian duty to help correct their misunderstanding.)

He’s so close to ‘getting it’! The point is that the dead in Christ – those faithful departed now in God’s presence – are part of the church, and of the body of Christ! We don’t “miss bonding within the church” when we pray for their intercession! Rather, as he suggests, this actually draws us into deeper relationship with this portion of the Church!

On the other hand, what do parents – and especially mothers – do for their children? There are many instances in which parents interceded on behalf of their children to the Lord (Jairus’ father, the royal official, the Syrophonecian woman whose daughter was possessed, the parents (in Mark 9) who bring their possessed child to Jesus), or whose grief moves Jesus (the widow of Nain). The witness of the Gospels is precisely that mothers and fathers bring their children to Jesus for healing! When Jesus speaks to Mary and John at the foot of the cross, it’s not just for Mary’s benefit, but for John’s! It shows a lot more than only “concern for His mother,” but for his apostle (and through him, for us)!

The alternative is unthinkable, though, wouldn’t you say? “Hi, guys! Hey, I’m going to give you all authority on earth, but you know what? Once you die, the authority dies with you. Instead, I’m going to pass all authority on to a book – which hasn’t been written, and which you don’t know anything about – and let that be the sole authority from now on. Moreover, once your authority dies, there won’t be any voice which has the authority to interpret this book (that – shh! – you don’t know anything about!), so we’ll go from a situation in which the Living Son of God is among His people, to a situation in which the authority of the Logos rests on his apostles, to a situation in which there’s no authoritative interpreter of my message. Remember that whole situation at the end of Judges, when ‘everyone did what was right in their own sight’…? That worked out so well for the Israelites, that I think we’ll repeat it all over again, ok?”

Seriously, though: if Jesus gave His proxy to His apostles, and if the apostles appointed leaders to replace one another upon their deaths, then the apostolic action of providing apostolic succession fits within the command of Jesus! The apostles’ actions – including the establishment of succession (including Petrine succession) – fits within the scope of the authority Jesus gave them! If you claim otherwise, then you claim that Jesus didn’t mean what He said, when He gave the apostles the power to bind and loose!

This is a great post and I am probably going to be borrowing off of your points in answering some of his questions, thank you all so very much… And if a few of you don’t mind to follow this thread off and on to help me with some of his questions it would be greatly appreciated!

I just think it would be so great if he truly came to the realization of how great a gift the Catholic Church is…

 

[brian614]

"Regarding Mary, yes, it seems that most of the Hail Mary is Biblical (especially the parts that describe what we know about Mary and what was said about her in Scripture) however there isn’t any scripture that tells us to pray to her or that she can pray on our behalf. I too like that Jesus asked John to be Mary’s son and Mary to be his mother. But I think this shows more about Jesus concern for His mother and not to be read beyond that, but that’s only my interpretation"

Ask your friend where does he get his ‘infallibility’ for his interpretation from?

If he answers the Holy Spirit guides him in his interpretation then advise him that he also thinks that he himself is infallible for the Holy Spirit cannot be the author of confusion. Same thing if he answers that his church elders interpret scripture or it’s his church official doctrine.

He can’t have it both ways. He can’t say the Pope and the Magisterium are not infallible when they define Doctrine i.e. interpret scripture. Then in the next breath say that he interprets scripture himself. We all know that the Holy Spirit guides all Doctrine formulation otherwise what would be the point. He cannot say he interpreted the verses himself with no help from the Holy Spirit.

If he concedes that the Holy Spirit guides him when he interprets the Bible then there you have it, he considers himself ‘infallible’ because the Holy Spirit is guiding him and the Holy Spirit does not lie.

Let him mull on that for a while and then ask him where he gets his authority from?Where does his authority to interpret and teach Scripture come from and where has it been for the first 1000 years of Christianity?

This is a great point, I think I am going to spend some time to write up a nice well mannered response using the posts I have just read, your help has been such a great help, alot of these things I have read I know to be true but needed help articulating them… Thanks again!

 

[SAVINGRACE]

This is a great point, I think I am going to spend some time to write up a nice well mannered response using the posts I have just read, your help has been such a great help, alot of these things I have read I know to be true but needed help articulating them… Thanks again!

You’re welcome. What it all boils down to essentially is authority. Only one Church has the authority passed to it by the Keys given by Jesus to Peter. Once that is understood and clarified he can understand why we follow this Church.

In Matthew 16 where the keys are handed to Peter, Jesus refers to Isaiah 22.

Isaiah 22:15,19-24 “Thus says the Lord, the GOD of hosts: Up, go to that official, Shebna, master of the palace… 19 I will thrust you from your office and pull you down from your station. On that day I will summon my servant Eliakim, son of Hilkiah; I will clothe him with your robe, and gird him with your sash, and give over to him your authority. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. I will place the key of the House of David on his shoulder; when he opens, no one shall shut, when he shuts, no one shall open. I will fix him like a peg in a sure spot, to be a place of honor for his family …”

DR SCOTT HAHN EXPLAINS BELOW

"What’s happening here? Well, in verse 19 it says, “I will thrust you from your office and you will be cast down from your station and on that day I will call my servant Eliakim, the son of Hilkiah, and I will clothe him with your robe and will bind your girdle on him and will commit your authority to his hand, and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the House of Judah; and I will place on his shoulder the key of the House of David.”

Now the House of David is like, you know, the House of Bourbon. It’s a dynastic reference. The House of David is the Davidic kingdom, the Davidic dynasty. We know this because David has been dead for hundreds of years when this is happening in Isaiah 22, “I will give you the key of the House of David. He shall open and none shall shut, and he shall shut and none shall open. He will become a throne of honor to his father’s house.” Look at all of the symbols of dynastic authority that are being given to this individual. First of all, an office. Second, a robe. Third, a throne and fourth, keys, the key of the House of David, these royal keys.

Now, what is going on here? I’ll just summarize it in rather simple terms. Hezekiah was at the time, the king over Israel. He was the son of David, hundreds of years after David had died. He was in the line of David and also he was ruler over the House of David. Now all kings in the ancient world had, as kings and queens have these days, cabinet officers, a cabinet of royal ministers. Like Margaret Thatcher is the Prime Minister, so there are other ministers under the Queen in Great Britain. Hezekiah, as King, had as his Prime Minister before Shebna who proved unworthy. So he was expelled, but when he was expelled, he left an office vacant. Not only did you have dynastic succession for the king, but you also have a dynastic office for the Prime Minister. When Shebna is expelled, there is an empty office that needs to be filled and that’s why Eliakim is called to fill it.

Now, Eliakim is a minister in the cabinet, but now he is being granted the Prime Minister’s position. How do we know? Because he is given what the other ministers do not have, the keys of the kingdom, the key to the House of David. That symbolized dynastic authority entrusted to the Prime Minister and dynastic succession. Why? Because it’s the key of David; it’s the House of David."

Jesus handed those keys to Peter then to Linus and so on and so on to Pope Francis today.

Good luck.

 

[Gorgias]

I am probably going to be borrowing off of your points in answering some of his questions, thank you all so very much… And if a few of you don’t mind to follow this thread off and on to help me with some of his questions it would be greatly appreciated!

You’re welcome! Good luck!

 

[josh987654321]

Thanks Josh, in my last message in which this was a response to I asked him what his views where on the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist… Oddly he hasn’t answered yet, but I think that the Eucharist is the heart of our Church and I will follow up again… Also thanks for the Scott Hahn reference, I will make sure to pass it along

My pleasure.

The Holy Eucharist is the key, because the thing about Catholicism and Protestantism, is that when it comes to the Holy Eucharist, Catholicism is either way right, or way wrong, we are in no middle ground. So when he comes to the realisation of the absolute truth to the Holy Eucharist, he will not be able to remain content with where he is (Being Protestant) unlike other doctrines.

How could he remain content where he is knowing that we receive that enormous gift where Christ comes down and feeds us with his body, blood, soul and divinity? As St Augustine say’s “His heart will be restless until it rests in thee.”

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh