Any former Sedevacantists on this forum? (post specifically for former Sedevacantists)

[tori2323]

This post is for former Sedevecantists only. Please, no fighting in the comments, and if there are disagreements, let us disagree cordially!

Any ex-Sedevecantists here? I’d like to hear your story and your reasons why you left Sedevacantism. The reason why I ask, well, let me give you a little bit of my backstory:

I am 18 years old, and I was born and raised Sedevecantist all my life. Right now I attend the CMRI with my family. Recently I have come to realize that I could no longer hold the Sedevecantist way of thinking that I grew up with all my life. I honestly think it was through the grace of God that I broke free of Sedevecantism. What really convinced me to no longer remain Sedevecantist was the “we have had no Pope for 60 years because these Popes were/are heretical” argument. If that were the case, then who would be leading the “remaining true Catholics”, as they like to say? Who would step up to lead the Catholics? Who would be “worthy” enough, because all these Sedevecantist bishops that I know all disagree with each other and dislike each other? My point here, is that with all this fighting and disagreements going on amongst different Sedevecantist and traditionalist groups, who can possibly lead the Catholics if truly there has been no Pope for over 60 years? God is certainly not the author of confusion and disunity, so all this fighting amongst Sedevecantists and other traditionalists can’t possibly be “a fight to defend the Faith” because it’s just arguing and hatred. This cannot possibly come from God

Obviously, I have other concerns about Sedevecantism which also led me to no longer remain a Sedevecantist, but this was the major reason. I’d like to hear your stories, as well. Plus, this transition is really difficult for me right now, because I am practically believing something I was taught for 18 years not to believe. However, I do feel that I am making the right decision, but that does not mean that it is any less harder. I do not feel right anymore at my CMRI parish, and I am not sure how to break that news to my family, who is staunchly Sedevecantist.

I just want to be a good Catholic. I love Catholicism and I love Tradition, but Sedevecantism just can’t be the road for me to take. I have also been seriously tempted to go to the other extreme, that is, liberalism, but I can’t go down that road as well. I don’t want to be conservative or liberal…I just want to be Catholic…despite the terrible things going on in our Church today.

My story may seem vague and probably leaves room for a lot of questions and explaining, but I will gladly share more details of my story if you want to know more as we exchange each other’s stories. Thank you and God bless!

 

[OrbisNonSufficit]

I just want to be a good Catholic. I love Catholicism and I love Tradition, but Sedevecantism just can’t be the road for me to take. I have also been seriously tempted to go to the other extreme, that is, liberalism, but I can’t go down that road as well. I don’t want to be conservative or liberal…I just want to be Catholic…despite the terrible things going on in our Church today.

(emphasis mine)

This is beautiful. I am not really former sedevacantist, but I was considering it for a time. I can’t really offer you a story though

Plus, this transition is really difficult for me right now, because I am practically believing something I was taught for 18 years not to believe.

I understand your concern, but at the same time, other than some stuff about Papacy and Vatican II that Sedevacantist hold, they hold Catholic Faith. Other than those two things, you are not required to relinquish anything. Catholic Faith was same pre-V2 as it is post-V2. God bless you, and may he help you in your journey.

 

[thistle]

I thought this was a banned topic.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

I don’t want to be conservative or liberal…I just want to be Catholic…

That’s the way it should be. Blessings to you, and may God give you strength for the journey!

 

[Fuerza]

I’ve never been a sedevacantist, but I just wanted to say that I’m glad you’re looking into a change. I can’t address the issue with your family, other than to say that as an 18-year-old you are neither legally nor canonically bound to obey your parents, though you must still respect them. Will they disown you or cut you out of their lives if you begin attending a recognized EF Mass? Are there any middle grounds that you could consider? For example, most sedevacantists recognize Eastern Catholic orders as valid. Could you possibly express a desire to investigate the Eastern rites and attend one of those liturgies for a while? That might make things a little easier if it’s possible.

 

[Mac]

As a former sedevacantist I can tell you why I left the position

Sedevacantism is an opinion. Privet individuals do not have the authority to depose a pope.

After 60 years of no Pope, we have no bishops with ordinary juristiction (authority to teach and govern) this is impossible because the Church must always have the mark of FORMAL apostalic succession.

With no legitimate Bishops left and no true Cardinals left, the Church. Lost its entire hierarchy.

Therefore it’s no longer a visible Church, no longer a Church with the attribute of Authority.

These conclusions are contrary to the doctrine on the Church. Read about the Mark’s and atributes of the Church in the Baltimore Caticism #3

Another reason I left sedevacantism is I realised that I’m perfectly FREE to believe and practice the Catholic faith inside the institutional Church.

Inspite of all the crazy things that happened after V 2, not one of them has been placed on me as an obligation of faith.

I still believe EXACTLY as I did before, and still exclusively attended the TLM.

Plus, the various arguments posed by sedevacantist, fall apart fairly easily under careful examination.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I have pondered and wrestled with the sedevacantist (hereafter SV for ease of writing) position over the years, but have finally decided against it. Following the reasoning of most SVs, we have not had a valid pope since Pius XII. That is untenable, if for no other reason than the following teaching from Vatican I (One, not Two — yes, there was a “Vatican I”, though they didn’t call it that until there was a “Vatican II”):

“Therefore, if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the Lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole Church; or that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema.” (Vatican I, Session 4, Chapter 2, Paragraph 5)

Interestingly, the First Vatican Council was never officially closed. The Church could re-convene it tomorrow and finish up its work. Perhaps “Vatican I” will finally resolve the SV question.

I am concerned that, as time passes, some of the truly schismatic traditionalist groups will be in the same situation as the Old Catholics of Utrecht — in possession of true sacraments and valid orders, yet totally separated from Rome. It has already been 60 years — what if it goes on another 60?

 

[HomeschoolDad]

I thought this was a banned topic.

As far as I am aware, SV in and of itself is not a banned topic. It could possibly fall under the rubric of “inciting animosity… towards the clergy”, but the theme here seems to be helping the OP to find a way out of SV, not promoting SV. So I think we’re good discussing it.

 

[SPQR1]

Welcome to the Church, and congratulations on making this difficult decision! I was also raised a Sedevacantist, and I also attended CMRI. My husband (also raised a Sedevacantist) and I returned to the Church almost 2 years ago. It was the best decision we ever made for ourselves and our kids. Our reasons for leaving were very much like yours. The Church is One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic, right? In Sedevacantistism, there is no “One”. There is no authority. There is nothing but constant confusion over whose opinion-based interpretation of theology is correct. After being very discontent with Sedevacantistism for so many years, I started revisiting the arguments I had grown up with. One by one, the arguements seemed so weak, so emotionally charged, and so one-sided. For example, the pope is not the pope, because he is a heretic. Well, assuming just for the sake of arguement that he actually IS a heretic, does the opinion of St. Robert Bellarmine on this issue give any of us the right to break away into schism? How does the situation resolve itself? We were always told we were in “hunker down mode” - just hanging on. Hanging on to what? And for what? The papacy was dead and there was no chance of reviving it, according to our old beliefs. I also realized that some leaders within the sedevacantist movement have twisted or cherry-picked facts in order to support their position. For example, the reasons for the supposed invalidity of Holy Orders and sacraments post Vatican II. I won’t explain it all now, but I was shocked once I realized how weak that argument was. That was something that caused a lot of anger and bitterness for me, especially now that I know how (and why) the Church does not accept the validity of any Holy Orders stemming from Archbishop Thuc. It was like our leaders were trapping us inside their cult by telling us that if we wanted the sacraments, we were only going to find them in these scattered remnants of independent Mass centers. There is a lot more I could say. Like you, I was eager to connect with former Sedevacantists when I first left. I didn’t have much success. It’s not a thing that most people are able to leave once they’re inside. It’s hard to know where you fit in once you leave. Feel free to private message me. We have a lot in common. I would not even be surprised if we discovered that we actually know each other somehow. It’s a small world when you’re a Sedevacantist. God bless, and keep the Faith!

 

[Minks]

Our Church is the Church instituted by Jesus Christ, the Son of God. To what higher authority can we turn? If we can’t trust His Word, we’re doomed. He told us that we would face multiple obstacles, in different ways at different times, that we and our Church would face persecution at different times until He returns. We are to believe in Him and maintain our faith. He promised us that no matter what may happen on earth, His Church—our Church—will prevail. We need to take that to the bank.

 

[HomeschoolDad]

That was something that caused a lot of anger and bitterness for me, especially now that I know how (and why) the Church does not accept the validity of any Holy Orders stemming from Archbishop Thuc.

The Church doesn’t accept Thuc orders? I’ve never heard that before. Not saying that you’re wrong, just that Archbishop Thuc was indeed a validly consecrated bishop, and if he consecrated other bishops — ill-advised though that may have been in any given case — why would it not be valid? Illicit, yes, invalid, why? Ditto for Thuc or any bishops consecrated by him ordaining priests, or for that matter, these bishops consecrating other bishops. And yes, I know all about the “non compos mentis” arguments against Thuc — you will hear it endlessly argued both ways.

I am in no way condoning the administration or reception of “Thuc orders” (though I understand, without necessarily agreeing, why SVs and others would seek those orders), but how is it that they are invalid?

As I said, I have in the past flirted with SV, and I had to talk my father (who will turn 85 tomorrow) “down off the ledge” one time after he got hold of an SSPV pamphlet and became persuaded. He is of a very simple faith, and it is very difficult to persuade him that the clerical sex scandals are compatible with a true papacy and magisterium.

 

[redbetta]

I thought banned topics have no longer been a thing since the great forum transition.

 

[SPQR1]

I should clarify - the Church does not say explicitly whether or not the orders are considered valid. It says only that the orders are not recognized - quite unlike the SSPX orders, which are certainly illicit, but undeniably valid and recognized as such by the Church. If you know a little about Thuc himself, he was mentally unstable. The circumstances of the episcopal consecrations he performed were very sketchy. Even most SVs didn’t want to have anything to do with his orders in the early days. As time went on, they realized that they needed to perpetuate their orders, and that this might be their only option. They changed their minds about how risky it was to base their orders on such an uncertainty, and went full speed ahead with all their ordinations and consecrations. The Church basically said, we have no way of knowing for sure whether or not these orders are valid, so we are not taking a chance. Here is a link on the subject of Thuc and his consecrations from the Sacred Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith. http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/c..._cfaith_doc_19830312_poenae-canonicae_en.html

 

[SPQR1]

I know a CMRI priest who wanted to come into communion with the Church. He was told that if he wanted to be a priest, he would have to go through the seminary and be ordained all over again. They did not consider him to be a priest. He chose to live his life as a Catholic layman instead.

 

[AlbMagno]

The doctrines are the same. The Liturgy can change. And thee law, as long as it’s human made, can change if the circumstances change.

 

[Bataar]

(post withdrawn by author, will be automatically deleted in 24 hours unless flagged)

 

[Bataar]

Well, I see my posts are being flagged/removed. I’ll stop posting since discussing this isn’t allowed it seems. I don’t get why protestants and other religions can discuss their position, but sedevacantists aren’t allowed.

 

[poche]

I think that sometimes we just have to learn to disagree without being disagreeable.

 

[habemus_papam_french]

Hello. I am French, so sorry for some mistakes.

I was in many doubts and troubles from ~Oct. 2018 to ~March 2019, between sedevacantism and FSSPX (but I had some periods of doubts recently (in 2019)).

In July 2018, I found the French channel of MHFM (VaticanCatholique). Then (in July 2018) I don’t know they are sedevacantists, I didn’t know what sedevacantism is…

After (in oct. 2018) I want to know more about this channel and why they are against Vatican II. I saw their videos, I doubted if Vatican II was heretical or not and if there was a Pope or not, but I can’t accept their opinion about the invalidity of Ordinary Mass and 1969 sacrements. I thought, that is unfair, that we are prived of Mass but especially Confession.

So I gone to Masses without care about their French website saying that it would be a “mortal sin” to attend Ordinary Mass.

I saw also their position on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. I doubted if BoD, BoB, etc… were heresies because I thought that is so unfair, that some catechumuens were condemned in Hell because they wanted to be baptised but they couldn’t. They say also, that God commands nothing impossible so I don’t understood how an unbaptises alone person on a desert island would be saved…

In March 2018, I was worried about the validity of sacrements and Mass since 1969, so I saw FSSPX website saying it’s valid, but also Vatican II isn’t infaillible and JPII is not infaillibly Saint, so I believe that until May 2019.

I also saw Archidiacre’s video refuting MHFM (“The thuth about VaticanCatholic (sedevacantist cult)”) making me beware of them for good (they were no longer credibility on me as before).

But I used their arguments proving canonisations are infaillible and that John XXIII and Paul VI promulgated Vatican II with charism of infaillibility (according to MHFM it would be the proof that they were antipopes) and FSSPX wasn’t also no longer credibility for me.

Now I’m Conciliar Catholic proud to be, and never I would leave Vatican II Church (which is the same and would be the same as before 1958).

Thank you to take attention.

 

[Bataar]

Hello. I am French, so sorry for some mistakes.

I was in many doubts and troubles from ~Oct. 2018 to ~March 2019, between sedevacantism and FSSPX (but I had some periods of doubts recently (in 2019)).

In July 2018, I found the French channel of MHFM (VaticanCatholique). Then (in July 2018) I don’t know they are sedevacantists, I didn’t know what sedevacantism is…

After (in oct. 2018) I want to know more about this channel and why they are against Vatican II. I saw their videos, I doubted if Vatican II was heretical or not and if there was a Pope or not, but I can’t accept their opinion about the invalidity of Ordinary Mass and 1969 sacrements. I thought, that is unfair, that we are prived of Mass but especially Confession.

So I gone to Masses without care about their French website saying that it would be a “mortal sin” to attend Ordinary Mass.

I saw also their position on Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. I doubted if BoD, BoB, etc… were heresies because I thought that is so unfair, that some catechumuens were condemned in Hell because they wanted to be baptised but they couldn’t. They say also, that God commands nothing impossible so I don’t understood how an unbaptises alone person on a desert island would be saved…

In March 2018, I was worried about the validity of sacrements and Mass since 1969, so I saw FSSPX website saying it’s valid, but also Vatican II isn’t infaillible and JPII is not infaillibly Saint, so I believe that until May 2019.

I also saw Archidiacre’s video refuting MHFM (“The thuth about VaticanCatholic (sedevacantist cult)”) making me beware of them for good (they were no longer credibility on me as before).

But I used their arguments proving canonisations are infaillible and that John XXIII and Paul VI promulgated Vatican II with charism of infaillibility (according to MHFM it would be the proof that they were antipopes) and FSSPX wasn’t also no longer credibility for me.

Now I’m Conciliar Catholic proud to be, and never I would leave Vatican II Church (which is the same and would be the same as before 1958).

Thank you to take attention.

How can you honestly say it’s the same?