Any other Messianic Jews Here?

[AbideWithMe]

As Evangelical Christians, they are Protestants in the Christian sense, and thus you find a general anti-Catholic view among them. See this blog for example on how one Messianic Jew views Catholicism: messianicdrew.blogspot.com/2011/06/messianic-look-at-roman-catholic-claims.html

To be fair, Delson, as you said, that’s one guy’s blog. He doesn’t speak for the whole of Messianic Jews any more that a particularly anti-Protestant Catholic speaks for Catholicism. In all the time I’ve had familiarity with members of the MJAA or UMJC, I’ve never heard Catholicism even brought up as topic. The UMJC in particular has made some statements of acceptance of Catholicism as it is today. I totally respect your reasons for not using “Messianic Jew” for self-identification, but I’m just saying that particular blog can’t be taken as representative of Messianic Jews overall, as some here might assume. ( Misunderstandings of Catholicism aside, I think his basic argument about the authority of the Sanhedrin isn’t without merit.)

 

[SAVINGRACE]

**Some Thoughts on “Messianic Judaism”

Eugene J. Fisher, Associate Director of the Secretariat for Ecumenical and interreligious Affairs, National Conference of Catholic Bishops **

The Catholic Church in general and this [United States] Conference of Bishops in particular has no official position on Messianic Judaism as such. It appears to be a phenomenon of Protestant Christian outreach to the Jewish community. As such, it is not within the jurisdiction of Catholic authorities, of course. There have been expressed, publicly but unofficially, some reservations that Catholics might have with it as an organized movement.

First, as was articulated so well by Professor Tommaso Federici in a paper delivered at the invitation of the Holy See for a meeting of the International Catholic-Jewish Liaison Committee in Venice in 1977, virtually any conceivable organization developed by Christian churches whose aim is to proselytize or convert Jews will inevitably, because of the tragic history of such efforts, have such a chilling effect on the Jewish community of today that it would result in an inhibition of the fully free exercise of the faith relationship between God and Jews. On pastoral grounds, therefore, the Catholic Church has not sanctioned any organizations created specifically to “target” the Jewish community. This does not, of course, diminish in any way the Catholic Church’s universal proclamation of the gospel to all humanity.

1. The phrase, “Messianic Judaism,” is highly problematic to many of us. We Christians who, following the logic of the gospel, set early upon the “parting of the ways” with our elder sisters and brothers in faith in the One God of Abraham and Sarah. This involved a recognition of the “newness” of the new age of salvation history brought about by the Christ-event. In so doing, over the course of some centuries, early Christianity came to acknowledge that the religious tradition which embodies the New Creation (“the Church”) is no longer a form of Judaism but its own, distinct reality. Hence, for any group of Christians to try to adopt for itself the name, “Judaism,” is to raise, however innocently, a host of theological dilemmas arising from the scriptures themselves and from the practice of the early Church.
2. On a more juridical level, the Catholic Church recognizes fully the precepts of religious freedom. The name, “Judaism,” means simply “the religion of the Jewish people.” It is the Jewish community alone, and not any of the Christian churches which can adjudicate whether or not the name “Messianic Judaism” or “Messianic Jew” can have any standing or recognition. To my knowledge the Jewish community in all its variety is of a remarkably united view on this matter. And the principles of religious freedom recognize the Jews’ rights, and theirs only, to determine such a matter.

 

[Peter_J]

**Some Thoughts on “Messianic Judaism”

Eugene J. Fisher, Associate Director of the Secretariat for Ecumenical and interreligious Affairs, National Conference of Catholic Bishops **

The Catholic Church in general and this [United States] Conference of Bishops in particular has no official position on Messianic Judaism as such. It appears to be a phenomenon of Protestant Christian outreach to the Jewish community. As such, it is not within the jurisdiction of Catholic authorities, of course. There have been expressed, publicly but unofficially, some reservations that Catholics might have with it as an organized movement.

First, as was articulated so well by Professor Tommaso Federici in a paper delivered at the invitation of the Holy See for a meeting of the International Catholic-Jewish Liaison Committee in Venice in 1977, virtually any conceivable organization developed by Christian churches whose aim is to proselytize or convert Jews will inevitably, because of the tragic history of such efforts, have such a chilling effect on the Jewish community of today that it would result in an inhibition of the fully free exercise of the faith relationship between God and Jews. On pastoral grounds, therefore, the Catholic Church has not sanctioned any organizations created specifically to “target” the Jewish community. This does not, of course, diminish in any way the Catholic Church’s universal proclamation of the gospel to all humanity.

1. The phrase, “Messianic Judaism,” is highly problematic to many of us. We Christians who, following the logic of the gospel, set early upon the “parting of the ways” with our elder sisters and brothers in faith in the One God of Abraham and Sarah. This involved a recognition of the “newness” of the new age of salvation history brought about by the Christ-event. In so doing, over the course of some centuries, early Christianity came to acknowledge that the religious tradition which embodies the New Creation (“the Church”) is no longer a form of Judaism but its own, distinct reality. Hence, for any group of Christians to try to adopt for itself the name, “Judaism,” is to raise, however innocently, a host of theological dilemmas arising from the scriptures themselves and from the practice of the early Church.
2. On a more juridical level, the Catholic Church recognizes fully the precepts of religious freedom. The name, “Judaism,” means simply “the religion of the Jewish people.” It is the Jewish community alone, and not any of the Christian churches which can adjudicate whether or not the name “Messianic Judaism” or “Messianic Jew” can have any standing or recognition. To my knowledge the Jewish community in all its variety is of a remarkably united view on this matter. And the principles of religious freedom recognize the Jews’ rights, and theirs only, to determine such a matter.

^^ Post of the month.

 

[DelsonJacobs]

To be fair, Delson, as you said, that’s one guy’s blog. He doesn’t speak for the whole of Messianic Jews any more that a particularly anti-Protestant Catholic speaks for Catholicism. In all the time I’ve had familiarity with members of the MJAA or UMJC, I’ve never heard Catholicism even brought up as topic. The UMJC in particular has made some statements of acceptance of Catholicism as it is today. I totally respect your reasons for not using “Messianic Jew” for self-identification, but I’m just saying that particular blog can’t be taken as representative of Messianic Jews overall, as some here might assume. ( Misunderstandings of Catholicism aside, I think his basic argument about the authority of the Sanhedrin isn’t without merit.)

Yes–I made that very clear that it was only ONE individual’s interpretation. I never said or implied it was a universal view. I did it to illustrate that it’s NOT an issue of “self-identification,” as you say you understand, by showing a contrasting view with the USCCB official view.

You did compare them, right? (Tell me you just didn’t read one and not the other.) That was the point. To see how different Catholicism is from what an individual Messianic Jew can believe about Catholicism.

And it is not about “self-identification” because I don’t qualify as a Messianic Jew. That’s the name of a group, a denomination, a religion as separate as Baptists are from Methodists–both made up of people who believe in Jesus, but still not the same groups.

While I am sure you got it by now, I just want to make this very clear:

• Some Jews believe that Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson was the Messiah. They are not “Messianic Jews,” because the “Messianic Jews” are a Christian denomination. A person has to accept Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah to be a “Messianic Jew.” So if you’re a Jew, but have a different concept of the Messiah (or practice a different form of Christianity that differs from the Messianic Jewish movement) you aren’t automatically a “Messianic Jew.” Believers in Rabbi Schneerson may be messianic and Jewish, but they are not “Messianic Jews.” Get it?
• I cannot call myself a Messianic Jew because I recognize the leadership of the Bishop of Rome, the Pope, and the Magisterium. In contrast, Messianic Jews believe in Sola Scriptura and the Bible as the ultimate authority. The two theologies are incompatible.
• I have to adopt the type of Christianity of Messianic Jews to be a “Messianic Jew.” And that would entail me leaving the Church and rejecting my convictions in the Roman Catholic faith. My family has been in the Church for 2000 years, through thick and thin. I am not about to leave the Church of my family and reject its creed to join the Messianic Jewish movement.

The reason for citing the blog was to show that the particular movement of the “Messianic Jews” is okay with its members having such views of Catholicism (even if its a rare view). I’m a Jew who is a Catholic because the Christian group that my family joined in the 1st century became what we know today as the Roman Catholic Church. It’s not about “self-identification,” it’s about not being a member of that particular denominational movement that is known by that name; Messianic Jews.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I wonder what happened to the person who started this thread.

I think I finally understand the point that poster Jacobs has been trying to make about the messianic jews and his own personal story .

 

[AbideWithMe]

Yes–I made that very clear that it was only ONE individual’s interpretation. I never said or implied it was a universal view. I did it to illustrate that it’s NOT an issue of “self-identification,” as you say you understand, by showing a contrasting view with the USCCB official view.

You did compare them, right? (Tell me you just didn’t read one and not the other.) That was the point. To see how different Catholicism is from what an individual Messianic Jew can believe about Catholicism.

And it is not about “self-identification” because I don’t qualify as a Messianic Jew. That’s the name of a group, a denomination, a religion as separate as Baptists are from Methodists–both made up of people who believe in Jesus, but still not the same groups.

While I am sure you got it by now, I just want to make this very clear:

• Some Jews believe that Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson was the Messiah. They are not “Messianic Jews,” because the “Messianic Jews” are a Christian denomination. A person has to accept Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah to be a “Messianic Jew.” So if you’re a Jew, but have a different concept of the Messiah (or practice a different form of Christianity that differs from the Messianic Jewish movement) you aren’t automatically a “Messianic Jew.” Believers in Rabbi Schneerson may be messianic and Jewish, but they are not “Messianic Jews.” Get it?
• I cannot call myself a Messianic Jew because I recognize the leadership of the Bishop of Rome, the Pope, and the Magisterium. In contrast, Messianic Jews believe in Sola Scriptura and the Bible as the ultimate authority. The two theologies are incompatible.
• I have to adopt the type of Christianity of Messianic Jews to be a “Messianic Jew.” And that would entail me leaving the Church and rejecting my convictions in the Roman Catholic faith. My family has been in the Church for 2000 years, through thick and thin. I am not about to leave the Church of my family and reject its creed to join the Messianic Jewish movement.

The reason for citing the blog was to show that the particular movement of the “Messianic Jews” is okay with its members having such views of Catholicism (even if its a rare view). I’m a Jew who is a Catholic because the Christian group that my family joined in the 1st century became what we know today as the Roman Catholic Church. It’s not about “self-identification,” it’s about not being a member of that particular denominational movement that is known by that name; Messianic Jews.

Delson, yes I read both. I wrote my post, with the short quote from you, specifically in order to address what you called the “general anti-Catholic view”. While perhaps you may be aware that most Evangelicals are not anti-Catholic, and neither are the great majority of Messianic Jews (except, when writing about history, to note the CC’s role in past persecution), your post seemed to be saying that Messianic Jews have general anti-Catholic views.

And yes, I understood before why you would not call yourself a Messianic Jew: you are not one, according to the current usage of the name.

 

[DelsonJacobs]

Delson, yes I read both. I wrote my post, with the short quote from you, specifically in order to address what you called the “general anti-Catholic view”. While perhaps you may be aware that most Evangelicals are not anti-Catholic, and neither are the great majority of Messianic Jews (except, when writing about history, to note the CC’s role in past persecution), your post seemed to be saying that Messianic Jews have general anti-Catholic views.

And yes, I understood before why you would not call yourself a Messianic Jew: you are not one, according to the current usage of the name.

No. That again was not my intention.

But I am glad you asked. Sometimes I can “project” something onto a writer’s work that can cause me to end up with the incorrect conclusion. Remember, a fellow poster on this thread went through something similar with me and we managed to turn that around too. We all bring something with us when we read other’s works.

I may not be the best writer in the world. And my limited experience on this forum has shown me that I more apt to write something that others will read from a viewpoint I failed to take into consideration.

Since it “seemed” one way to you, then that is where I, as a writer, have failed. It was not my intention nor the gist of my writing to claim that all Messianic Jews are anti-Catholic.

When writing anything I have to not only try to make myself clear in my mind, I must make myself clear to an audience that can consist of people having views I have never encountered. I am still learning how to take this into consideration and have not perfected this, so I am glad you offered me the chance to clear this up. I will try to improve on this in the future.

 

[AbideWithMe]

When writing anything I have to not only try to make myself clear in my mind, I must make myself clear to an audience that can consist of people having views I have never encountered. I am still learning how to take this into consideration and have not perfected this, so I am glad you offered me the chance to clear this up. I will try to improve on this in the future.

Delson, you usually seem to write pretty clearly to me, but I completely understand this here. I think we all struggle with this, and the back and forth, seeking clarity with assumptions of good intentions, is something God can use to mature our charity.

I still haven’t gotten to read the whole thread…hopefully I’ll be home tonight to read. Meanwhile, I encourage people to seek information about Messianic Jews directly from the source, using not just the MJAA but also the UMJC, and their journal, Kesher.