Any Predestination/Free Will Experts?

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We have had a long discussion about this. I have been pointed to some excellent documents on Catholic theology of predestination.

64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:jSDj7mGqvLcJ:ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTM+predestination+reprobate+Ludwig+ott+dave+armstrong&hl=en

cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm

My current understanding is that all is God’s grace and it is His will that is always done - not ours. Therefore we don’t really have free will because all we do works to God’s purpose and the root reason for our decisions is beyond ourselves. We can only hope to be chosen by God.

For any decision a person makes, I ask what is the root reason. E.g. if they are selfish, prideful, lustful, etc. I ask why? Is there no cause?

Greg
 
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Greg_McPherran:
My current understanding is that all is God’s grace
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If this is so, then why is there evil? Isn’t God’s grace “good”.
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Greg_McPherran:
and it is His will that is always done - not ours.
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If so, why didn’t Adam and Eve obey?
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Greg_McPherran:
We can only hope to be chosen by God.
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I don’t have to hope to be chosen. I know that I am. He desires that all will be saved. My only task is to love as He loved. This I am free to do or not.
 
Best book I’ve ever seen on the subject is Chosen but Free by Norman Geisler.

DaveBj
 
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Greg_McPherran:
My current understanding is that all is God’s grace and it is His will that is always done - not ours. Therefore we don’t really have free will because all we do works to God’s purpose and the root reason for our decisions is beyond ourselves. We can only hope to be chosen by God.
Greg
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I would consider these words from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1704 The human person participates in the light and power of the divine Spirit. By his reason, he is capable of understanding the order of things established by the Creator. By free will, he is capable of directing himself toward his true good. He finds his perfection “in seeking and loving what is true and good.”

1711 Endowed with a spiritual soul, with intellect and with free will, the human person is from his very conception ordered to God and destined for eternal beatitude. He pursues his perfection in “seeking and loving what is true and good” (GS 15 § 2).

1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. “God willed that man should be ‘left in the hand of his own counsel,’ so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him.”

1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one’s own responsibility. By free will one shapes one’s own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom. On man’s part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:

406 The Church’s teaching on the transmission of original sin was articulated more precisely in the fifth century, especially under the impulse of St. Augustine’s reflections against Pelagianism, and in the sixteenth century, in opposition to the Protestant Reformation. Pelagius held that man could, by the natural power of free will and without the necessary help of God’s grace, lead a morally good life; he thus reduced the influence of Adam’s fault to bad example. The first Protestant reformers, on the contrary, taught that original sin has radically perverted man and destroyed his freedom; they identified the sin inherited by each man with the tendency to evil (concupiscentia), which would be insurmountable. The Church pronounced on the meaning of the data of Revelation on original sin especially at the second Council of Orange (529) and at the Council of Trent (1546).
 
No one ever answers my question. 🙂

For any decision a person makes, I ask what is the root reason. Even if the answer is selfish, prideful, lustful, etc. I ask why? Is there no cause?

Let’s analyze Adam and Eve for example:

Why did Eve choose wrongly?

Let’s take this step by step.

Greg
 
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Greg_McPherran:
No one ever answers my question. 🙂

For any decision a person makes, I ask what is the root reason. Even if the answer is selfish, prideful, lustful, etc. I ask why? Is there no cause?

Let’s analyze Adam and Eve for example:

Why did Eve choose wrongly?

Let’s take this step by step.

Greg
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With respect to you Greg, I can’t help you answer your question because it is based on a false premise. You stated above, “My current understanding is that all is God’s grace and it is His will that is always done - not ours. Therefore we don’t really have free will because all we do works to God’s purpose and the root reason for our decisions is beyond ourselves. We can only hope to be chosen by God.” Your sentence “Therefore we don’t really have free will…” is incorrect. We do have freewill. It is pointless to try to answer a question that is based on a false premise. It is better to clear up the false premise then proceed to any questions from it. I believe that is davidv, DavidBj tried to do and it is what I also tried to do.

I can’t answer a question that denies freewill because I do not deny freewill, nor does the Catholic church.

Council of Trent, CANON V.-If any one saith, that, since Adam’s sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema.
 
Originally Posted by Greg_McPherran
*Once again, no one ever answers my question. 🙂

For any decision a person makes, I ask what is the root reason. Even if the answer is selfish, prideful, lustful, etc. I ask why? Is there no cause?

Let’s analyze Adam and Eve for example:

Why did Eve choose wrongly?

Let’s take this step by step.

Greg*
 
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Greg_McPherran:
Originally Posted by Greg_McPherran
*Once again, no one ever answers my question. 🙂

For any decision a person makes, I ask what is the root reason. Even if the answer is selfish, prideful, lustful, etc. I ask why? Is there no cause?

Let’s analyze Adam and Eve for example:*

Why did Eve choose wrongly?

Let’s take this step by step.

Greg
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Answer: free will
 
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ccav:
With respect to you Greg, I can’t help you answer your question because it is based on a false premise. You stated above, “My current understanding is that all is God’s grace and it is His will that is always done - not ours. Therefore we don’t really have free will because all we do works to God’s purpose and the root reason for our decisions is beyond ourselves. We can only hope to be chosen by God.” Your sentence “Therefore we don’t really have free will…” is incorrect. We do have freewill. It is pointless to try to answer a question that is based on a false premise. It is better to clear up the false premise then proceed to any questions from it. I believe that is davidv, DavidBj tried to do and it is what I also tried to do.

I can’t answer a question that denies freewill because I do not deny freewill, nor does the Catholic church.

Council of Trent, CANON V.-If any one saith, that, since Adam’s sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema.
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Catholic Encyclopedia:

newadvent.org/cathen/14698b.htm

The efforts made by theologians and the various explanations offered by Augustinians, Thomists, Molinists, and Congruists show how difficult of solution are the questions involved. Perhaps we shall never know, in this world, how a just and merciful God provides in some special manner for the elect and yet sincerely loves all men. The celebrated Congregatio de Auxiliis (q.v.) did not forever put an end to the controversies, and the question is not yet settled.
 
Catholic Theology admits that we do not have a full explanation of free will.

newadvent.org/cathen/14698b.htm

The Thomistic School is distinguished from other schools of theology chiefly by its doctrines on the difficult questions relating to [God’s (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) action on the free will of man, God’s foreknowledge, grace, and predestination. In the articles on these subjects will be found an exposition of the different theories advanced by the different schools in their effort to explain these mysteries, for such they are in reality. As to the value of these theories the following points should be borne in mind:
  • ***No theory has as yet been proposed which avoids all difficulties and solves all doubts; ***
For all you who are so convinced that we have free will, I think you need to read this. From this I see that free will is nothing more than a theory at this point.

Greg
 
I’d like to fancy myself a free will expert since I wrote a thesis on the issue and plan on writing a dissertation on it as well. I’m not as familiar with the intricacies of predestination, but I know alot about determinism and fatalism. I love the topic, it is so fascinating and so important. My thoughts are free will can’t just be a theory, it is absolutely necessary if there is a Hell, which there certainly is. I’m somewhat of an “open theist” - I’m more willing to admit that maybe God’s providence is more limited than traditionally believed than I’m willing to chip away at free will. Not because I’m a humanist but because I think that even if we don’t believe that every single event that happens on earth is willed by God, the Gospel message is still basically the same. But if we lack the simple power to do otherwise than what we do, then there is something radically wrong with the Gospel - mainly we go to Hell for things we couldn’t not have done, yet God is “good” I think open theism is also more appropriately equiped to deal with the problem of evil. But that is a whole 'nother can of worms.
 
Thanks Minerva,

I think if you look at anyone’s decision process, what we call free will really isn’t and that indeed the only will to be done is God’s.

Consider the thought process of Adam. Why did he choose wrongly?

Greg
 
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Greg_McPherran:
Thanks Minerva,

I think if you look at anyone’s decision process, what we call free will really isn’t and that indeed the only will to be done is God’s.

Consider the thought process of Adam. Why did he choose wrongly?

Greg
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I believe you stated in your question, why there has to be free will. If Adam made the “wrong” choice, this implies that he had to make up his own mind and chose what he thought was right, or best, at the time. God gave him a command that he didn’t obey. If he had no free will, why was he not forced to obey?

So, a valid question may be, how can both God’s will and my will be done at the same time. I say it is a matter of time. Through out salvation history the chosen people were given opportunity after opportunity to correct the erroneous decisions made by Adam and Eve. But, over and over again, they chose to do things their way instead of God’s way. The more they did this the harder it became to make the correct choices. When Jesus enters the picture, sin had so corrupted the earth, it was no longer possible for us to make the right choices. Once and for all Jesus was able to chose correctly in face of the tempations in the garden. So - if I chose to do my will, different than God’s, God then has to wait for me or some he sends in my place to do His will.
 
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davidv:
I believe you stated in your question, why there has to be free will. If Adam made the “wrong” choice, this implies that he had to make up his own mind and chose what he thought was right, or best, at the time. God gave him a command that he didn’t obey. If he had no free will, why was he not forced to obey?

So, a valid question may be, how can both God’s will and my will be done at the same time. I say it is a matter of time. Through out salvation history the chosen people were given opportunity after opportunity to correct the erroneous decisions made by Adam and Eve. But, over and over again, they chose to do things their way instead of God’s way. The more they did this the harder it became to make the correct choices. When Jesus enters the picture, sin had so corrupted the earth, it was no longer possible for us to make the right choices. Once and for all Jesus was able to chose correctly in face of the tempations in the garden. So - if I chose to do my will, different than God’s, God then has to wait for me or some he sends in my place to do His will.
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Hi Dave,

We welcome you to join our discussion at this post:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=162550&postcount=125
 
hey greg. i’m amused by and applaud your tenacity in trying to solve the dilemma. i’m not sure it’s soluble, but you’re certainly giving it a go. 🙂

one thing i’d invite you to consider is that perhaps you’re creating a bit of a false dichotomy. you’re assuming that if adam’s choice led to God’s plan of the redemption of all mankind, then adam must not have had a say in the matter. but i can tell you, from my own life, that God so often (in fact, i think always) uses my poor choices for my own good and for His glory, and the betterment of others. but i know i have a choice. when i’m presented a temptation, i can walk away. and the Bible backs this thinking. none of us are tempted beyond what we can stand.

so - to answer your question (or try to) - why did adam choose to sin? because of the danged woman! no, just kidding. because he succumbed, by his own free will and choice, to temptation. he CHOSE. however, God used it for good, and wove it beautifully into a story of eternal redemption.

are we predestined to glorify God and benefit others, or do we have a choice? i think the answer is a very ‘catholic’ YES. we are predestined. we have a choice. it is both.

do you know the story of st augustine walking on the beach, trying to figure out the trinity? the story goes (and correct me if i get something wrong) something like this - he’s walking down the beach, trying to understand the trinity. he’s tried for a long time. suddenly he sees a little child (in my version, a little girl) who’s dug a whole in the sand, and is running back and forth from the sea, cupping water and pouring it into the hole in the sand.

he stops the child and asks ‘little child, what are you doing?’

‘trying to pour the ocean into this hole in the sand’ replied the child.

‘don’t you know you can never fit the immensity of the ocean into your tiny little hole?’ augustine asked.

the child replied ‘don’t you know you can never fit the mystery of the trinity into your tiny little mind?’

and the child promptly disappeared.

perhaps free will vs predestination is a bit like that.

if not, then i would enjoy plumbing the depths with you.
 
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Greg_McPherran:
We have had a long discussion about this. I have been pointed to some excellent documents on Catholic theology of predestination.

64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:jSDj7mGqvLcJ:ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ120.HTM+predestination+reprobate+Ludwig+ott+dave+armstrong&hl=en

cin.org/users/james/files/tulip.htm

My current understanding is that all is God’s grace and it is His will that is always done - not ours. Therefore we don’t really have free will because all we do works to God’s purpose and the root reason for our decisions is beyond ourselves. We can only hope to be chosen by God.
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No expert here 🙂​

God is not like Agent Orange: His Goodness & Love don’t destroy created goodness, or created love - they make them possible, and actual, and fruitful, and varied, and real. The NT shows us this - Jesus Christ shares His Father, His election, His dying, His Sonship, His being the Light of the world, His righteousness, His trampling satan underfoot, & His Cross. His Life becomes ours; the Spirit Who is His, is ours also. The love God requires in Deuteronomy 6 is a total and unreserved love - nothing is to be withheld; by Christ, nothing is. He fulfilled the Law because He responded with infinite obedience and infinite Love to the Commandment which summed it all up. His death on the Cross doesn’t preserve us from suffering: it guarantees it - and transforms it. He was to be crucified - so His disciples must take up the Cross, and follow Him: they don’t avoid the Cross, but share in it.

Far from obliterating, or obstructing, or making impossible the reality of beings other than God, it is their guarantee. Divine Holiness does not relieve us from being holy as He is Holy - it is an incentive to us to be holy; it helps us to be holy. The reality of His Love for others, is not a reason for us not to love others - loving others, is the test of the reality of our own love for God. What we do to others, we are, in effect, doing to Christ.

All things perform God’s Will - either willingly, without having wills, or despite their wills: for “God writes straight with crooked lines”. The injustices of Good Friday, were means to further the world’s salvation. Our wills are fulfilled by our being wholly obedient to God. Our dignity as human beings, is, to be Loved by God Our Creator - and to answer to Uncreated Love with a love which is the response of beings made in the Image and Likeness of Christ. He is Our Model, He shows what man is for, what living as man is for - He is the reason, the Logos, that creatures are created. All created nature is made for Him, and is fulfilled in Him. Because we are fallen, we are unable to be the creatures we are intended to be - in us are all sorts of contradictions - the flesh wars against the spirit, our intellects are darkened, our wills lack the spontaneity and freedom and promptness and energy they should have, and we, who are made so that we might find our fulfilment in God, insist on seeking it elsewhere. Man is made with a hunger in him which cannot be appeased by anything short of the Vision of God in Heaven - yet he tries to be satisfied by idols: things he has made, or perverted. It doesn’t work, and it can’t - so man is unhappy. Our wills work after a fashion, but not as they should. So God’s Will, which is the Will to which ours should be conformed, is mistaken for a burden and an interference.

Certainly the “root reason for our decisions is beyond ourselves” - unless God is no greater than creatures, it will be. That does not make our willing any less ours - any more than the Life of grace ceases to be really ours for being from Christ. Grace frees us to be who we are, not to be independent of God, but to be ever more deeply and lovingly and freely united with Him. Free will is a God-like gift: it gives to limited man the freedom to direct his whole person to God - or to refuse to. It makes man capable of doing what God the Son does, in a way that is proper to a creature. To be God’s is to be ever freer and ever more lovingly obedient - to be the other, is to find that freedom apart from Christ for Whom it is made, is slavery.

Hope this helps ##
For any decision a person makes, I ask what is the root reason. E.g. if they are selfish, prideful, lustful, etc. I ask why? Is there no cause?

Greg
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