Anyone care to help with this? Dates and Church Teaching

  • Thread starter Thread starter gracelife
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Okay your friend is butchering up our faith terribly. Either he is truly so ingnorant or is trying to slander. Either way he is terribly wrong. I don’t have energy to refute them all but start by showing him/her that he is only stating official recognitian of these doctrines. They had already been accepted by the church for years. Oh yeah, we didn’t add the apocryphal books, Luther took them out. We just confirmed their authenticity at the Council of Trent in refutation to the reformers.
 
By the way, this is the same old loaf of fruitcake I’ve seen passed around at Christmass time for 7 years of internet apologetics. It’s very sad. Don’t miss the point I made about the Orthodox above. It’s one I don’t hear brought up but it is important to reflect on in this issue. If they believe some of our teachings, though they don’t use the same terms it adds credence to our claim that these are Sacred Oral traditions and when the doctrine was declared dogma has little bearing on when they began to be taught throughout the Church.
 
40.png
gracelife:
I received from an anti-Catholic:

*Let’s see, what did the C. Church add to God’s already complete word: *

*1 . Prayers for the dead . 300 A.D. *
*2. Making the sign of the cross 300 A.D. *
*3. Veneration of angels & dead saints .375 A.D. *
*4. Use of images in worship . 375 A.D. *
*5. The Mass as a daily celebration 394 A.D. *
*6 Beginning of the exaltation of Mary; the term, “Mother of God” applied a Council of Ephesus- 431 A.D. *
*7 Extreme Unction (Last Rites)…526 A.D. *
*8. Doctrine of Purgatory-Gregory 1….593 A.D… *
*9. Prayers to Mary & dead saints …….600 A.D. *
*10. Worship of cross, images & relics 786 A.D. *
*11 Canonization of dead saints … …995 A.D. *
*12. Celibacy of priesthood …1079 A.D. *
*13. The Rosary … 1090 A.D. *
*14. Indulgences ……1190 A.D. *
*15. Transubstantiation-Innocent III … 1215 A.D. *
*16. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest 1215 A.D. *
*17. Adoration of the wafer (Host)…… 1220 A.D. *
*18. Cup forbidden to the people at communion…1414 A.D. *
*19. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma…………1439 A.D. *
*20. The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed .1439 A.D. *
*21 Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent……1545 A.D. *
*22. Apocryphal books added to Bible ….1546 A.D. *
*23. Immaculate Conception of Mary………….1854 A.D. *
*24, Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals, proclaimed by the Vatican Council … 1870 A.D. *
*25. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) …………1950 A.D. *

Anyone care to help refute this?
Here is a thread that brings up this list. It is called the Boettner List. It has many errors.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=79593&highlight=Boettner+List

The above link gives the below link to another forum where someone does a great job answering each of the objections.

christianforums.com/t922262-the-boettner-list-fact-or-fiction.html
 
Montie Claunch:
Thanks. I have learned from the best. I still have a way to go but, My God it feels so good to be able contribute to something like this.
Montie! You are one on-fire dude! Congratulations on coming so far so fast. As Newman said, “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.”
 
Heres one;
  1. Cup forbidden to the people at communion…1414 A.D.
And this food is called among us Eu0xaristi/a [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these…

From Justin Martyr First Apology 66, 151AD

Theres more to it but that answers the question of it being instituted in the 1400’s…
 
40.png
Northwind:
Heres one;
  1. Cup forbidden to the people at communion…1414 A.D.
And this food is called among us Eu0xaristi/a [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these…

From Justin Martyr First Apology 66, 151AD

Theres more to it but that answers the question of it being instituted in the 1400’s…
This does not address the OP’s issue. The cup was forbidden in the 1400s in response to the Utraquist heresy fomented by Jan Hus. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, the distinctive tenet of the Hussites was the necessity, alike for priest and layman of Communion under both kinds, *sub utraque specie." *

So this “forbidding” is not so much a deprivation as an affirmation that Christ is present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, in even the tiniest morsel of the consecrated elements. Never was Mass celebrated without the consecration of both bread and wine. And, of course, today, it is common for the people to partake of the Cup.
 
Ah, my understanding of the questioner was that the practise of refusing communion did not start until the 1400’s…which we know is untrue.
 
40.png
gracelife:
I received from an anti-Catholic:

*Let’s see, what did the C. Church add to God’s already complete word:

1 . Prayers for the dead . 300 A.D.
2. Making the sign of the cross 300 A.D.
3. Veneration of angels & dead saints .375 A.D.
4. Use of images in worship . 375 A.D.
5. The Mass as a daily celebration 394 A.D.
6 Beginning of the exaltation of Mary; the term, “Mother of God” applied a Council of Ephesus- 431 A.D.
7 Extreme Unction (Last Rites)…526 A.D.
8. Doctrine of Purgatory-Gregory 1….593 A.D…
9. Prayers to Mary & dead saints …….600 A.D.
10. Worship of cross, images & relics 786 A.D.
11 Canonization of dead saints … …995 A.D.
12. Celibacy of priesthood …1079 A.D.
13. The Rosary … 1090 A.D.
14. Indulgences ……1190 A.D.
15. Transubstantiation-Innocent III … 1215 A.D.
16. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest 1215 A.D.
17. Adoration of the wafer (Host)…… 1220 A.D.
18. Cup forbidden to the people at communion…1414 A.D.
19. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma…………1439 A.D.
20. The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed .1439 A.D.
21 Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent……1545 A.D.
22. Apocryphal books added to Bible ….1546 A.D.
23. Immaculate Conception of Mary………….1854 A.D.
24, Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals, proclaimed by the Vatican Council … 1870 A.D.
25. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) …………1950 A.D. *

Anyone care to help refute this?
These dates are when the Church officially made these beliefs into dogma and clarified them. But the Church still taught and believed these things from the time of the Apostles, at least in their seminal forms.
 
O.K. like I said I would, here is the bit, I wrote on Induglances and Purgatory I hope it helps. Just remeber I wrote this to a Fundamentalist whom I was a bit mad at when I wrote this.
Indulgences
Indulgences are not Forgivness of sin but, the remittedness the Temporal Punishment, not eternal punishment, of already forgiven sins.(ccc1471). It is not a “Free Bee” as you put it. The Catholic Church teaches that through the sharing of love ,wheather through Prayer, acts of penance, works of charity and marcy, between fellow christians the holiness of one profits others for Paul said in Colossians 1:24 “Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in m flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church”. He sufferings can help us behind the sufferings of Christ.
I now you are proboly shaking your head, “But, Temporal Punishment isn’t biblical.” But, it is. After King David had compitted adultery and killed his best freind for his wife after he found she was pregnent, he had repented and God forgave him. But, God told david that evan though his sins were forgiven his Child would die as punishment to him. Now this is evan after he was forgiven of his sins he was punished, Not Eternally but, Temporally. And the Jews carried this belief as seen when they asked Jesus if one mans blindness was due to his parents sin or his own. And even Jesus reply that fate and chance happen he does not leave Temporal punishment out of the equation. There was no, “You idiots there is no such thing as temporal punishment.”
So you see the bible clearly teaches that ones suffering can not only help oneself but, others. This is what the Catholic Church teaches (See CCC 1471-1479; 1498).
Purgatory
I know you proboly will jump out your seat to say that the Catholic Church invented Purgatory and that it has no basis in the Bible. But it is biblical. Jesus spoke of it in Luke 12:58,59 when he said," When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison. I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite." And when you say well that is only with judges as the scripture says, your right but, what you fail to realize it that God is a Judge, which is why we speak of the last judgement. But, Jesus said, “Thou shalt not depart thence,” and we know that there is no departing from hell so the only place we can go where we pay for our sins is Purgatory.
In Matthew 12:32 “and whosoever against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever wpeaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.” Jesus was saying that one could attain attonment for ones sins (except blasphymy against the holy spirit) either in this world or the world to come. This really come to sense when one hears St. Augustines The City of God “Temporay punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment”.
Paul even testfies of this in 1 Corinthians 3:13-15, “Every man’s work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man’s work of what sort it is. If any man’s work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.” Now this cannot refer to just ordinary work because howmany businesses can you name that get burned down on a daily basis. I can’t think of any. “He shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved;” cannont refer to hell because if anyone is “saved” they don’t go to hell, the only logical conclusion is purgatory.
2 Maccabees 12:46 (whos inspiration I shall discuss a little later but, save for now it must be admitted as a feflection of the religious views of the Jews before the New Testament)“It is a Holy and wholesome though to pray for the dead, that they might be loosed from their sins”. As it has already been stated nothing can help in those in hell and those in heaven don’t need it only those in Purgatory could use it (it is also another verse that supports indulgences by the way they sacrifice for the spiritual benifiet of others).
I know your probobly yelling at this paper and turning red with Christs suffering takes care of that and once forgiven one would automaticly go to heaven but, Rev. 21:27 says that nothing Unclean shall enter heaven. And though Christs crucifiction may cover ones sins it is still there and must be cleansed “as by fire” before it can enter into heaven.
 
40.png
gracelife:
1 . Prayers for the dead . 300 A.D.
8. Doctrine of Purgatory-Gregory 1….593 A.D…
Where were the dead people we were praying for before we invented the Doctine of Purgatory ? 😃
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top