Anyone help w covert messiah?

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Hey I just heard about a presentation called Covert Messiah on social media. They say they have evidence that the entire New Testament is a fabrication and that Jesus never existed. I’m not exactly having doubts but it is unsettling. I was surprised there wasn’t anything regarding this on the front page. Has anyone else heard of this? Does anyone want to contest this?
 
I’ve never heard of this, but Fictional Jesus is an old heresy. (Most heresies are reruns.)

Usually, what you get is people, who don’t know anything about history or ancient literature, claiming that the Gospels are fake because either they’re “unconvincing and obviously made up,” or “too full of interesting details and obviously made up.” Either the Gospels were written by amazingly incompetent novelists, or by amazingly wonderful novelists. Often these theories are both argued at the same time.

These are usually the same people who believe as Gospel truth everything that Julius Caesar ever said about himself in The Gallic Wars, because obviously a guy who says he was wonderful and admirable must have been totally awesome. (Don’t get me wrong; he was a great general. Just not as great as he amped himself up to be.)

Don’t let this junk bother you. If you are interested, there are plenty of anti-heresy apologists that you can read, from the earliest times up until today.

UPDATE: Ah, this guy is arguing “Jesus is fictional because Marx’s opium of the people.” Sigh. Polytheism is a lot easier way to “pacify the poor” than Christianity, because you end up with a zillion little religious factions instead of one big unified Church. One of the many reasons why the Japanese shoguns opposed Christianity. They didn’t want the common people, the samurai class, and the aristocracy to have anything but the State that drew them together.

It looks pretty stupid, but I suppose somebody has to take a bullet and actually read this junk for apologetics purposes. Man, this is why I am not an apologist.
 
Hey I just heard about a presentation called Covert Messiah on social media. They say they have evidence that the entire New Testament is a fabrication and that Jesus never existed. I’m not exactly having doubts but it is unsettling. I was surprised there wasn’t anything regarding this on the front page. Has anyone else heard of this? Does anyone want to contest this?
Actually, I have even better evidence that “Covert Messiah” is a complete fabrication.

And since my post is now on the internet, it must be true. 🙂

In all seriousness, though, I know nothing of the group in question but – as Mintaka said – the claims are hardly new. I’ve seen enough similar stuff to suspect that these people have no idea what they are talking about.

You are right about one thing. If there was even a shred of legitimacy to their claims, you would see plenty of front page news stories about them and plenty of Catholic apologetics articles explaining it all in context. That you cannot find much in lieu of a response is indicative that the group just doesn’t exert much influence.
 
These claims are unfounded historically. Jesus was (is) a real person and was mentioned outside the Gospels. (The Gospels were actually chosen among lots of writings because of accuracy and credibility of the authors, and the Bible as we know it today didn’t exist in the early Church.) The Romans did not want Christianity to spread because they were polytheistic. The people in authority also wanted regular people to worship them as gods. Many early Christians were martyred (refusal to worship false gods, or creation rather than creator). I think an apologist should go into more detail on this and address the claims, as this seems to be a hot topic right now.

In the future, I would stay away from these things. They are filled with historical inaccuracies and lies and exist to trick people into abandoning their faith and embracing sins such as materialism and relativism that are embraced by secular society. Evil is behind this. There are thousands and thousands of good Catholic books, so many that one could read an entire lifetime and still not read everything. No need to waste time on garbage written by people who don’t know what they’re talking about. Unless a friend is confused and you’re trying to help him/her, or if you’re an apologist whose job it is to respond to these things. But there are too many good books and articles to waste time on the bad ones… 👍
 
So, the Romans invented Jesus, eh? That means they also had to invent:
  • Peter, John & Paul, too, right?
  • Clement of Rome (because he is mentioned in the NT and knew Peter and Paul)
  • Ignatius of Antioch (who knew Peter and John)
  • Polycarp of Smyrna (because he was a disciple of John)
  • Irenaeus of Lyons (because he was a disciple of Polycarp and heard him speak of the Apostles)
Irenaeus died around AD 200, so when did Roman fiction end and real believers take up the story of Christianity? Because Ireneus listed all of the Bishops of Rome from Peter down to his own day:

“3The blessed Apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the Church [of Rome], they handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus. Paul makes mention of this Linus in the Epistle to Timothy. To him succeeded Anencletus; and after him, in the third place from the Apostles, Clement was chosen from the episcopate. He had seen the blessed Apostles and was acquainted with them. It might be said that He still heard the echoes of the preaching of the Apostles, and had their traditions before his eyes. And not only he, for there were many still remaining who had been instructed by the Apostles. In the time of Clement, no small dissension having arisen among the brethren in Corinth, the Church in Rome sent a very strong letter to the Corinthians, exhorting them to peace and renewing their faith. To this Clement, Evaristus succeeded; and Alexander succeeded Evaristus. Then, sixth after the Apostles, Sixtus was appointed; after him, Telesphorus, who also was gloriously martyred. Then Hyginus; after him, Pius; and after him, Anicetus. Soter succeeded Anicetus, and now, in the twelfth place after the Apostles, the lot of the episcopate has fallen to Eleutherus. In this order, and by the teaching of the Apostles handed down in the Church, the preaching of the truth has come down to us.” (Against Heresies 3.3.3, [A.D. 180])

“4Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time” (Against Heresies 3:3:4 [A.D. 189]).

Since all of the men listed by Irenaeus were known by others who were still living, wouldn’t it have been fairly easy for the early Church to “out” a fictional character by simply asking, “Gee, does anyone remember this guy?”

And given the fact that the first 31 popes were martyred, either they were fictional characters or all of them were betrayed by the Romans who killed them after they had pretended to be the Bishop of Rome. Who would agree to do that?

And since the Roman empire not only converted to Christianity after the Edict of Milan in AD 313 (though not all at once, of course), this plot, if true, would have been one of the greatest miscalculation in the history of mankind. The Roman Empire is gone, but their Jesus Myth lives on? What are the odds of that happening?
 
I just saw mentions of this today. This is a presentation marking the “European introduction” of a documentary based on a 2006 book. The basic premise from looking at the website is that it’s all psychological warfare, and that most of the early church leaders were in on the ploy. Josephus was in on it too. Indeed, it’s the parallels between Josephus’ histories and the Gospels that “prove” that the Gospels are a Roman fabrication. But the parallels in some place are poetic enough and subtle enough in some places that it’s easy to miss unless you’re looking for it, which is why no one realized it (since the Roman times) until Atwill was clever enough to figure it out. But once you see it, these subtle links “prove” his point.

There are several sites and articles critiquing the book (Caesar’s Messiah) online if you’re so inclined.
 
I came across this thread, and I figured I’d sign up quickly to drop this link here. Christian apologist “Chris White” recently put together a website to refute Atwill’s thesis, as well as a short YouTube video debunking it.

Check it out here. caesarsmessiahdebunked.com/

He also has some other worthwhile projects debunking other anti-Christian fables (such as Zeitgeist).
 
Hey I just heard about a presentation called Covert Messiah on social media. They say they have evidence that the entire New Testament is a fabrication and that Jesus never existed. I’m not exactly having doubts but it is unsettling. I was surprised there wasn’t anything regarding this on the front page. Has anyone else heard of this? Does anyone want to contest this?
Ok let’s put it also like this:

Several ATHEISTS in the blogosphere, e.g. Patheos atheist channel and EVEN Richard Carrier (who is also a big fan of Christ-myth theories!) think Atwill is a crackpot and his theories make no sense at all!!!

People who strongly believe Jesus did not exist are debunking Atwill.


Several historians have also said his thoeries are just impossible fantasies.
 
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