Anyone Reading From Conflict to Communion?

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Randy_Carson said:
lutheranworld.org/sites/default/files/From%20Conflict%20to%20Communion.pdf

If so, what are your thoughts?

:coffeeread:
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I might be taking this in a different direction, Randy, but the Catholic comments are interesting:
Sober historical analyses by other Catholic theologians showed that it was not the core concerns of the Reformation, such as the doctrine of justification, which
led to the division of the church but, rather, Luther’s criticisms of the condition of the church at his time that sprang from these concerns.
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This, to me, is an astounding statement, coming from Catholics! That it was the condition of the Church, and not the core doctrinal disputes, that led to division.

And…
  1. In light of the renewal of Catholic theology evident in the Second Vatican
    Council, Catholics today can appreciate Martin Luther’s reforming concerns and regard them with more openness than seemed possible earlier.
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  1. Implicit rapprochement with Luther’s concerns has led to a new evaluation of his catholicity, which took place in the context of recognizing that his intention was to reform, not to divide, the church. This is evident in the statements of Johannes Cardinal Willebrands and Pope John Paul II.7 The rediscovery of these two central characteristics of his person and theology led to a new ecumenical understanding of Luther as
    a »witness to the gospel.«
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This was not so surprising, as the Lutheran / Catholic documents I’ve read are evidence of this new look at Luther, and frankly, the Confessions. This, at times, seems to be missing from the dialogue approach of some members here, not that we Lutherans have no warts. In short, I think our theologians and clergy have a more positive view of each other than is often revealed in apologetics.

Jon
 
benjohnson said:
I certainly understand - for me Augsburg would solve 95% of the problem.

Holden Evening Prayer is a good substitute for Vespers , but oddly enough I’ve been going to a confessional ELCA (yes they exit! flcws.org ) church every Wed for the old 1888’s Vespers and I’m beginning to see flaws in Holden Evening Prayer in that it’s a bit too heavy on describing God and not thanking God.

Fun bit of trivia: Many Lutheran pastors have told me that Holden is where all the nuttiness in the Lutheran world began to take form and shape in the 1960’s. Apparently you can draw a line form Holden → Seminex - > ELCA → Fabulousness™ .
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Ben

I briefly looked at the parish website and think you ought to join the church since it is evangelical catholic. It looks like dozens of parishes in my region, both ELCA and LCMS as well as Episcopalian. However, I did not read anything [to be honest, I did not read the pastor’s sermons] that would suggest to me that the parish is not typically ELCA.

Per Crucem

You also point to strict confessional Lutheranism, and God love you because that is our heritage. But we live in a different time now and the world needs Christianity all the more as Francis shows us. The Diocese of North America seems like typical Lutheran, btw.

We are Lutheran but we are also Catholic. Theological study is much more than memorizing Augustana. We need to focus on the present tense world.
 
EvangelCatholic said:
You also point to strict confessional Lutheranism, and God love you because that is our heritage. But we live in a different time now and the world needs Christianity all the more as Francis shows us. The Diocese of North America seems like typical Lutheran, btw.

We are Lutheran but we are also Catholic. Theological study is much more than memorizing Augustana. When need to focus on the present tense world.
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Theological truth does not change with the culture, Evangel. What was sin 2000 years ago, is sin today. The problem with the ELCA is not a difference with the LCMS on Law and Gospel with respect to sexuality; it’s a total lack of Law…which means there is no Gospel to answer it.
 
JonNC said:
This, to me, is an astounding statement, coming from Catholics! That it was the condition of the Church, and not the core doctrinal disputes, that led to division.
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Do you agree or disagree with that?

Jon, we Catholics should be quick to agree that the Church WAS in need of reform. What we got instead was separation.
This was not so surprising, as the Lutheran / Catholic documents I’ve read are evidence of this new look at Luther, and frankly, the Confessions. This, at times, seems to be missing from the dialogue approach of some members here, not that we Lutherans have no warts. In short, I think our theologians and clergy have a more positive view of each other than is often revealed in apologetics.
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I’m coming to that same conclusion. A few weeks ago, I would have held Luther personally responsible for the whole kit and kaboodle, and I had no time for Lutherans as a result. You can see that in some of my older posts (and I mean just a few weeks older!)

After reading this document, I have to admit that my entire perspective has changed. Now, to be fair, the document still portrays Luther as a man who was tormented by fears of the loss of his salvation (I’m paraphrasing), but if he had been better understood by Cajetan (and vice versa) much may have been avoided.

And since you guys don’t seem to be such monsters after all, I’m more than eager to see you coming home to Rome ASAP. 😛

Isn’t ecumenical dialogue a beautiful thing?

Now, about those ELCA…
 
Randy_Carson said:
Do you agree or disagree with that?

Jon, we Catholics should be quick to agree that the Church WAS in need of reform. What we got instead was separation.
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Well, it was in need of moral reform, I suppose. I think that’s always the case, though. For Luther’s part, I don’t think he was much interested in the moral reform. When others brought that up to him, he usually dismissed it. He was interested in doctrinal reform, of the sort that would correct what he perceived to be abuses to Catholic doctrine. In reading the document, I noticed it mention that Luther drafted his theses to oppose the teaching of indulgences. If there’s one thing the document got wrong, it’s that. The 95 theses were actually intended to be a defense of the Catholic teaching on indulgences, as opposed to the abuses of Tetzel. Not only that, they were intended to defend the Pope. Unfortunately, Luther wasn’t privy to that whole Fugger bank deal.
After reading this document, I have to admit that my entire perspective has changed. Now, to be fair, the document still portrays Luther as a man who was tormented by fears of the loss of his salvation (I’m paraphrasing), but if he had been better understood by Cajetan (and vice versa) much may have been avoided.
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I think Luther was just more brutally honest than most of us. If we were, we’d know that everyone is terrified by a loss of salvation. It’s how we deal with that terror that matters. Some, like Calvinists, escape it by pretending they can’t lose it.

Luther found the right answer. Christ, and His shed blood for sinners, and that alone. He attacked what he perceived to be the Church of his day preventing other sinners from finding that same Gospel comfort and instead driving them to things like indulgences, pilgrimages, prayers for the dead, etc. All of those things can be, and are, fine in their proper places. Not, however, when they obscure Christ and the Gospel. That is and always will be the rub.

It could have been handled differently by both sides. I don’t know if it could have been, given the political and religious climate of the time.
 
Per_Crucem said:
I think Luther was just more brutally honest than most of us. If we were, we’d know that everyone is terrified by a loss of salvation. It’s how we deal with that terror that matters. Some, like Calvinists, escape it by pretending they can’t lose it.
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👍
It could have been handled differently by both sides. I don’t know if it could have been, given the political and religious climate of the time.
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Germany seems to have been a powderkeg at the time. It didn’t take much.
 
We can not underestimate the turmoil in Europe, that for many of us, is our ancestry. The transition from late middle ages to Renaissance. The printing press was the Internet in 1500’s

Yes, Luther seemed obsessed with the question of salvation in a way alien to us.
 
I came across this article of Catholic-Lutheran relationships in Latvia:
The Society of St. Pius X, in conflict with the Vatican over reforms, organized spectacular Ignatian Exercises and Retreat in the Latvian capital of Riga in April 2008. Among those participating: the Lutheran Protestant regional archbishop of Riga.
sspxasia.com/Countries/World/NewsArchive.htm

. . . Seven laymen participated, but also eleven Protestant clergymen and even the head of the Lutheran Protestant community of Latvia, the regional Archbishop of the Lutheran Diocese of Riga, participated.
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In his sermons during the Ignatian Retreat, Father Stehlin SSPX preached about the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, about the Mother of God, about divine grace, about the seven sacraments and the one Church which is alone sanctifying . .
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The Lutheran Pastors declared that they had asked a Traditionalist, because ecumenical meetings with official Catholic church representatives often consisted out of nice words, nice-talkers without any content and substance in their words.
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Many said they had been given the impression, that Catholics these days are rather willing to imitate the Protestants.

Lutheran-Evangelical Protestant cathedral of Riga, Latvia Traditional Roman Rite Mass by the Society of St. Pius X during the Vadstena Pilgrimage in Sweden, inside a Lutheran church. Lutheran churches in Scandinavia, Denmark and the Baltic countries mostly conserved their Medieval high altar and statues
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In the meanwhile one of the Pastors said: “We are searching for Truth, for clarification about many ambiguities and contradictions within our own Protestant faith.”
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They wanted to learn the authentic doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church. But this doctrine would only be clearly preached today by traditionalist clergymen:
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“These are not ecumenical-nice-talkers without a spine, but they clearly preach the authentic Catholic deposit of faith.” – one of the Lutheran pastors said.
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According to the website the gratitude of the participants was immense: “The pastors said they particularly loved the the method of Saint Ignatius of Loyola, which opened accession to Sacred Scripture to them.”
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The Lutheran Protestant pastors and archbishop were also touched by the Mariology preached by priest Stehlin: “With great intensity and piety, they also witnessed the Catholic rite of Mass [Tridentine Rite].”
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After the Ignatian Retreat Father Stehlin received the notification that already one of the participants had converted to the Roman Catholic Church.
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The Lutheran Regional Archbishop of Riga, leader of the Lutheran community of entire Latvia, asked Father Stehlin to come back soon and preach his Ignatian retreats to a larger group of Latvian Catholic and Protestant faithful and Lutheran Pastors.
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The Retreat in Riga (Latvia at the Baltic Sea) has a history before it. Already in November 2006 Father Stehlin had preached Ignatian retreats for Lutheran Protestant pastors in northern, neighbouring Estonia.
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One of the pastors present in November 2006 was from Lativa. He was particularly touched by Mariology and at the end declared: “I found my Mother!”
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After that the contact and communication with him was lost, but a few months ago, Father Stehlin received an invitation from him, to come to Latvia and preach his retreats to a larger group of Lutheran pastors.
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=Randy Carson;11268401]Do you agree or disagree with that?
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Jon, we Catholics should be quick to agree that the Church WAS in need of reform. What we got instead was separation.
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I’m of the opinion that it was not either/or, but both/and, though I think it started
as a response to the need for reform.
In my more honest moments, I also think that in some ways the Lutheran reformers over-reacted to the abuses, and I think Purgatory and invocation of the saints are two examples. Luther himself seems to indicate that Purgatory could be acceptable (I think he refers to Augustine’s concept “without scriptural support”) were it not for indulgences and mass fairs and the like.
And invocation is not simply a western thing, but a universal practice long before the Reformation.
In short, unlike some of my protestant siblings, in some ways the Lutheran reformers went a bit too far, at least on the margins.
I’m coming to that same conclusion. A few weeks ago, I would have held Luther personally responsible for the whole kit and kaboodle, and I had no time for Lutherans as a result. You can see that in some of my older posts (and I mean just a few weeks older!)
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After reading this document, I have to admit that my entire perspective has changed. Now, to be fair, the document still portrays Luther as a man who was tormented by fears of the loss of his salvation (I’m paraphrasing), but if he had been better understood by Cajetan (and vice versa) much may have been avoided.
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Well, reading the Lutheran Catholic dialogue documents over the last few years has had a profound impact on me, as well. I have felt for a while that reconciliation is not so remote a possibility now as it once was.
And since you guys don’t seem to be such monsters after all, I’m more than eager to see you coming home to Rome ASAP. 😛
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Isn’t ecumenical dialogue a beautiful thing?
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It is, indeed. And I’m not sure there is a bilateral dialogue that has been more successful than that between Lutherans and Catholics, with the possible exceptions of Catholics and Anglicans, and Lutherans and Anglicans (generally).
Now, about those ELCA…
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I can be pretty rough on my Lutheran siblings in the ELCA/LWF, but credit given here in that they (or the predecessor bodies) opened the door to dialogue with Catholics 50 years ago. The problem is they continue to drift away from Lutheran orthodoxy.

Jon
 
JonNC said:
It is, indeed. And I’m not sure there is a bilateral dialogue that has been more successful than that between Lutherans and Catholics, with the possible exceptions of Catholics and Anglicans, and Lutherans and Anglicans (generally).

I can be pretty rough on my Lutheran siblings in the ELCA/LWF, but credit given here in that they (or the predecessor bodies) opened the door to dialogue with Catholics 50 years ago. The problem is they continue to drift away from Lutheran orthodoxy.

Jon
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I have raised the question if there is another inter-Christian dialogue as groundbreaking as the Catholic-Lutheran declarations. Probably Anglicans are as far along in their relations with the Church of Rome.

I read recently on a “confessional” site that the Church of Sweden and the ELCA have been in the forefront of gender/ sexual orientation inclusion while leading ecumenical talks with the Papacy. It looks like most European Lutherans are aligned with the LWF/ Apostolic Succession movement. German Lutherans are also proactive participants and fell in love with Pope Benedict [once beatified, Benedict XVA will likely be observed on Lutheran saints days].
 
EvangelCatholic said:
I have raised the question if there is another inter-Christian dialogue as groundbreaking as the Catholic-Lutheran declarations. Probably Anglicans are as far along in their relations with the Church of Rome.

I read recently on a “confessional” site that the Church of Sweden and the ELCA have been in the forefront of gender/ sexual orientation inclusion while leading ecumenical talks with the Papacy. It looks like most European Lutherans are aligned with the LWF/ Apostolic Succession movement. German Lutherans are also proactive participants and fell in love with Pope Benedict [once beatified, Benedict XVA will likely be observed on Lutheran saints days].
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No people of any sexual orientation are excluded, EC. And neither gender is excluded. Now I will readily state my support for Pope Francis’ call that people of same gender attraction should be treated with the love of the gospel. But the law is still curb, mirror, and guide, and guide all of us, including gays, to obey His commands.
Additionally, I see no chance of Pope Francis approving female clergy.

Jon
 
Per_Crucem said:
On a brighter note…this parody of Haugen’s “Gather Us In” drivel is worth it.

Here in this place, our comfortable parish,
All of the statues carried away,
See in each face a vacuous visage,
Brought here by guilt or by R.C.I.A.

Gather us in, by Beemer or Hummer,
Gather us in, so we can feel good,
Come to us now in this barren Zen temple,
With only a shrub and an altar of wood.

We are the young, our morals a mystery,
We are the old, who couldn’t care less,
We have been warned throughout all of history,
But we enjoy this liturgical mess.

Gather us in, our radical pastor,
Gather us in, our unveiled nun,
Call to us now, with guitars and bongos,
Hang up your cellphones and join in the fun!

Here we will take some wine and some water,
Whether it changes, we really don’t care.
But when the Sign of Peace comes, our pastor,
Jumps from the altar and hugs like a bear.

Gather us in, uncatechized masses,
Gather us in, the liberal elite,
Help us to form our personal Credo,
Give us a choice between white bread and wheat.

One of our teens, she serves on the altar,
Our only other, he plays bass guitar.
Sister preaches in Crocs and a pantsuit,
She reads it straight to us from NCR.

Gather us in, the truly enlightened,
Gather us in, without dogmatic fuss.
We all eschew outdated religion,
Our god is our bellies, our worship is Us.
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I know this is a bit of a late reply, but :D.
 
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