Anyone watch last weeks EWTN live?

[archangel04]

The spoke about the new translations, and most of the stuff are things most of us know or have discussed on the forums, but it’s the questions and reactions of the people at the end. Some of them think that we are going back to the Latin, even thought over and over again throughout the show they explain that we are NOT. But the reactions of some of these people truly show how the dislike/despise Latin.

Here is a link if you would like to watch:
ewtn.com/audiovideo/index.asp

Scroll all the way down and find EWTN Live

 

[MarkThompson]

The spoke about the new translations, and most of the stuff are things most of us know or have discussed on the forums, but it’s the questions and reactions of the people at the end. Some of them think that we are going back to the Latin, even thought over and over again throughout the show they explain that we are NOT. But the reactions of some of these people truly show how the dislike/despise Latin.

Here is a link if you would like to watch:
ewtn.com/audiovideo/index.asp

Scroll all the way down and find EWTN Live

I watched it. A couple of thoughts:

(1) Most people are really not that smart. Probably around 25% of Massgoers, which is a pretty sizeable chunk, are in the bottom quartile (!) in terms of intelligence in the human population.

(2) Only one guy indicated that he wouldn’t want Mass in Latin; the others just asked how much of it was going to be required to be in Latin. And that guy looked pretty old – in his mid-60’s, at least? go to 40:05 on the video – so I’m guessing he remembers perfectly well when each and every Mass was in Latin, and he’s been to way more Latin Masses than I have. I think that entitles him to have an opinion, don’t you?

(3) It will be important to answer questions straight up, which not all of the commentators here did. If someone asks, “Uh, so will we really be having Masses in Latin now?”, the best answer is “No.” You can then explain that priests can already say Mass in Latin, just like they can in Spanish or any other language, and that that will continue, but obviously absolutely nothing in the new translation (it’s a translation, after all) requires even one word of Latin at Mass.

I’ve seen several people already at the L&S forum ask variations on this question, because they get confused by this kind of exchange: they ask “Will Latin be required?”, and the vague hoping-to-convince-them-that-it-ought-to-be answer comes: “Well, the Pope obviously wants Latin in the Mass, and he is leading us in that direction, and the Vatican Council documents call for Latin to be retained, and the traditional Mass can only be celebrated in Latin,” and so on and so forth. The right answer would have been, “No, don’t worry, it’ll still be in English. What are your thoughts about Latin at Mass?”

 

[At_Trent]

The spoke about the new translations, and most of the stuff are things most of us know or have discussed on the forums, but it’s the questions and reactions of the people at the end. Some of them think that we are going back to the Latin, even thought over and over again throughout the show they explain that we are NOT. But the reactions of some of these people truly show how the dislike/despise Latin.

Here is a link if you would like to watch:
ewtn.com/audiovideo/index.asp

Scroll all the way down and find EWTN Live

They are jaded

 

[JReducation]

I watched it. A couple of thoughts:

(1) Most people are really not that smart. Probably around 25% of Massgoers, which is a pretty sizeable chunk, are in the bottom quartile (!) in terms of intelligence in the human population.

That’s a leap, isn’t it?

(2) Only one guy indicated that he wouldn’t want Mass in Latin; the others just asked how much of it was going to be required to be in Latin. And that guy looked pretty old – in his mid-60’s, at least? go to 40:05 on the video – so I’m guessing he remembers perfectly well when each and every Mass was in Latin, and he’s been to way more Latin Masses than I have. I think that entitles him to have an opinion, don’t you?

Hey! Watch that. He’s just a few years ahead of me.

(3) It will be important to answer questions straight up, which not all of the commentators here did. If someone asks, “Uh, so will we really be having Masses in Latin now?”, the best answer is “No.” You can then explain that priests can already say Mass in Latin, just like they can in Spanish or any other language, and that that will continue, but obviously absolutely nothing in the new translation (it’s a translation, after all) requires even one word of Latin at Mass.

The problem is that we (religious and clergy) have not been given an aswer to that question. The official promulgation is not out yet. The bishops have a copy of it and there is a copy of it on the USCCB site, for catechetical purposes. But the book itself is not yet in our hands. Until you have the missal and rubrics in hand you want to be careful what you answer. These things usually come with a letter of intent from the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship. I heard the date, but can’t recall off the top of my head. I think I heard that all of these questions will be answered in a document that will come out this week.

There is a rumor that some parts of the mass may very well be in Latin. I’m not too sure about that rumor. I believe it may be wishful thinking. Another question on the table is whether any part of the mass can be in Latin. That, I believe is possible, just as we have mass with parts in Spanish, Creole or other languages, unless the new rubrics say that you cannot mix languages, which I doubt will happen.

We’ll just have to wait and see what the documents say.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[MarkThompson]

That’s a leap, isn’t it?

Well, a statistician might not think so.

The problem is that we (religious and clergy) have not been given an aswer to that question. The official promulgation is not out yet. The bishops have a copy of it and there is a copy of it on the USCCB site, for catechetical purposes. But the book itself is not yet in our hands. Until you have the missal and rubrics in hand you want to be careful what you answer. These things usually come with a letter of intent from the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship. I heard the date, but can’t recall off the top of my head. I think I heard that all of these questions will be answered in a document that will come out this week.

There is a rumor that some parts of the mass may very well be in Latin. I’m not too sure about that rumor. I believe it may be wishful thinking. Another question on the table is whether any part of the mass can be in Latin. That, I believe is possible, just as we have mass with parts in Spanish, Creole or other languages, unless the new rubrics say that you cannot mix languages, which I doubt will happen.

If you’re saying there’s a rumor that come next Advent the Church will require that some or all of every Mass be said in Latin, I haven’t heard any such, and the approved Ordo has been made public, and it doesn’t have any Latin. Nor does Liturgiam Authenticam call for it, and none of the people involved in the process, from the top to the bottom, have said anything except that the new translation will all be in English. It would also be strange, since that would mean that an “English” Mass would by requirement be partly in Latin, while Mass in every other language (the ones which are not getting new books next Advent) would remain entirely in the vernacular.

Don’t misunderstand, I think it would be great if some Latin were required, but I wanted to point out that we do a disservice to people who have concerns and misgivings about “So now my Mass will be in Latin?!” if we don’t first assuage their concerns. Let them know that they will still have English, and then try to persuade them that they ought to want Latin. There’s no reliable reason to think otherwise, and a very large corpus of highly reliable reasons to think that the 100% English Mass will continue to be just as licit as it is today.

Most of the people who ask these kinds of questions are concerned about what will happen at their parish, not about hypothetical cases in which a multi-language Mass is celebrated by choice. So by all means it’s true that a pastor under the new translations could do part of the Mass in Latin, but that’s a power he has today – and applies to Latin equally as to Spanish or Creole – and it has nothing to do with the translations, so there is no reason to expect any change on that front just because the English texts are changing. Latin will not be forced on a parish whose pastor doesn’t want it, just as it isn’t today.

 

[JReducation]

Well, a statistician might not think so.

If you’re saying there’s a rumor that come next Advent the Church will require that some or all of every Mass be said in Latin, I haven’t heard any such, and the approved Ordo has been made public, and it doesn’t have any Latin. Nor does Liturgiam Authenticam call for it, and none of the people involved in the process, from the top to the bottom, have said anything except that the new translation will all be in English. It would also be strange, since that would mean that an “English” Mass would by requirement be partly in Latin, while Mass in every other language (the ones which are not getting new books next Advent) would remain entirely in the vernacular.

Don’t misunderstand, I think it would be great if some Latin were required, but I wanted to point out that we do a disservice to people who have concerns and misgivings about “So now my Mass will be in Latin?!” if we don’t first assuage their concerns. Let them know that they will still have English, and then try to persuade them that they ought to want Latin. There’s no reliable reason to think otherwise, and a very large corpus of highly reliable reasons to think that the 100% English Mass will continue to be just as licit as it is today.

Most of the people who ask these kinds of questions are concerned about what will happen at their parish, not about hypothetical cases in which a multi-language Mass is celebrated by choice. So by all means it’s true that a pastor under the new translations could do part of the Mass in Latin, but that’s a power he has today – and applies to Latin equally as to Spanish or Creole – and it has nothing to do with the translations, so there is no reason to expect any change on that front just because the English texts are changing. Latin will not be forced on a parish whose pastor doesn’t want it, just as it isn’t today.

I tend to agree with you on all the above, but until the decree is released, I’ll just sit and watch. I know that the Ordo has been made public. But that’s not what we’re waiting for. There is another document that has to come. I believe that my superior said it would come this week. I have to ask. It could have been last week, for all I know. I do know that it was at the end of October 2010. It’s the decree of promulgation of the new ordo. Without that decree, the ordo does not have the force of law behind it.

In my experience of many years, as you have pointed out above, LOL, sometimes you have something like an ordo in your hands and suddently you get a document that says, “We changed out minds”

I lived through this in 1970 with the Franciscan Missal. The Congregation for Divine Worship had approved the new missal. It had gone to print. Suddenly, there was a letter from the five Ministers General that said there had been mistake. We had to wait another six-months before we could use the new missals.

So as not to scanalize anyone, an explanation is in order. The Sacred Congregatio for Divine Worship had approved he use of Gregorian Chant, because the committee that had put the missal together had written in that certain parts of the mass could be chanted in Gregorian Chant. However, St. Francis had banned Gregorian Chant in the 13th century. Every time that the friars wanted to use it, they had to get an indult. The new missal was worded in such a way that it seemed as though Gregorian Chant was now an option for Franciscans. Everyone was very excited, because it was a novel idea. Nooooooooooooot.

The Ministers General had never approved it. They could not. They did not have the authority to overrule St. Francis, neither did the Sacred Congregation. Only a pope could overrule it. The whole thing had to go to Pope Paul VI who did approve it with conditions and restrictions. It took six-months to get that approval.

That’s why I say that you can have a missal and an ordo, but until you have the piece of paper signed by the right people, you just sit and wait. As I said, that piece of paper was to come out at the end of October. It may be out already. I don’t know, because I don’t deal in liturgy. I am not allowed to ask questions about liturgy, nor am I allowed to have an opinion. I just do what I’m told.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[plefe]

That’s a leap, isn’t it?

Hey! Watch that. He’s just a few years ahead of me.

The problem is that we (religious and clergy) have not been given an aswer to that question. The official promulgation is not out yet. The bishops have a copy of it and there is a copy of it on the USCCB site, for catechetical purposes. But the book itself is not yet in our hands. Until you have the missal and rubrics in hand you want to be careful what you answer. These things usually come with a letter of intent from the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship. I heard the date, but can’t recall off the top of my head. I think I heard that all of these questions will be answered in a document that will come out this week.

There is a rumor that some parts of the mass may very well be in Latin. I’m not too sure about that rumor. I believe it may be wishful thinking. Another question on the table is whether any part of the mass can be in Latin. That, I believe is possible, just as we have mass with parts in Spanish, Creole or other languages, unless the new rubrics say that you cannot mix languages, which I doubt will happen.

We’ll just have to wait and see what the documents say.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

And yet…the saddest aspect to me is that we will learn every other language out there in our schools, go to Mass hearing Spanish, or Czech, but fall apart when a thought of the dreaded Latin should be learned or used. I think Latin should be offered in all the schools. My children who attend Catholic School are allowed to take Latin as an elective once they reach the 8th grade. Very few tackle it. I never found it that difficult but did not keep up with the study until college, when Latin for me came in the way of Plant taxonomy. I remebered enough that pronunciation seemed to be easy for me and found myself correcting others. If Latin is such a Universal language, what is the problem. I’ve enever understood lay people or religious.

 

[buffalo]

Just a thought - the devil hates Latin.

 

[JReducation]

Just a thought - the devil hates Latin.

Does he hate Aramaic, Greek, Hebrew, Russian, Croation, Arabis and all of the other languages used by the Catholic Churches around the world? The only Catholic Church that claims Latin as its official language is the Roman Church. The Church’s statement on Latin being the officia language is not meant for the Oriental Catholics. Even their Canon and all the letters that go out to them from the Holy See are written in their language, not Latin. Even some religious orders in the West have never used Latin as their official language. Many of always used Spanish.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Gpacharlie]

RE: Most people are really not that smart. Probably around 25% of Massgoers

Dear Mark T.,

Do you have any statistics on those who attend protestant worship services. I know a protestant denomination pastor that claims a much smaller percentage of dummies attending his service, in the range of 3%…so I am wondering as a sociologist with your credentials perhaps you could draw some conclusions for me as I am in the bottom of that 25% demographic you quoted and I need a little extra help. One reason it took awhile for me to come back to the church was because I was intimidated by all the smart people, but now that I know a significant number are like me I feel more at home, well, most of the time. Oh, and is massgoers a real word?

Thank you,
Sincerely, if a bit sarcastically, in love,
grampacharlie

 

[thistle]

Just a thought - the devil hates Latin.

What makes you say that? Do you have a source?

 

[Gpacharlie]

Well it does appear that some folks were not paying attention. Sometimes people have a question they want to ask so badly that they can’t hear anything but the question in their heads. I think we would all benefit from learning latin. Latin is used in all the sciences, especially medicine and much of our modern languages trace their word origins back to latin. I would actually like to see a latin mass now and then with the priest or deacon or knowledgeable lay person there maybe 20 minutes before mass running through the latin prior to the mass for peoples benefit. I think that more people might relearn what they were never taught in the first place, if you know what I mean. I am really looking forward to the new liturgy. It will give me a second chance in life to really focus on the mass and not drift off like I did as a kid.

 

[MarkThompson]

RE: Most people are really not that smart. Probably around 25% of Massgoers

Dear Mark T.,

Do you have any statistics on those who attend protestant worship services. I know a protestant denomination pastor that claims a much smaller percentage of dummies attending his service, in the range of 3%…so I am wondering as a sociologist with your credentials perhaps you could draw some conclusions for me as I am in the bottom of that 25% demographic you quoted and I need a little extra help. One reason it took awhile for me to come back to the church was because I was intimidated by all the smart people, but now that I know a significant number are like me I feel more at home, well, most of the time. Oh, and is massgoers a real word?

Thank you,
Sincerely, if a bit sarcastically, in love,
grampacharlie

The “bottom quartile” is by definition the lowest 25% of something. So 25% of the human population people are in the bottom quartile in terms of intelligence (and another 25% of people are in the top quartile), because being in the bottom quartile means being in the lowest 25%. It’s just like saying “Half the people are below average” – it’s true by definition, because the “average” is the middle value for the entire population. Therefore, assuming that massgoers (which is a real enough word, by the way) make up a fairly representative cross-section of the human population, then roughly 25% of them will likewise be in the bottom (or top) 25% of anything – intelligence, height, whatever.

So to phrase it this way was a bit of a joke, not really a sociological conclusion. I just wanted to point out that it is indeed true that very large numbers of people are not actually all that smart. (Why, half of them are below average!)

 

[A_Catholic]

For those who are either so afraid of Latin or just want nothing to do with it, I think it is good to remember that Latin is still the official language of the Church. All official documents coming from the Magesterium are written in Latin. Also, in the Vatican II documents, the Fathers never meant for the entire Mass to be in the vernacular, most especially the Cannon. That was always to remain in Latin. In fact, the Cannon was never to be spoken audibly. The Bishops gave permission for only certain parts of the Mass to be in the vernacular. It was Pope Paul VI who decided to change completely to the vernacular.

The Bishops at Vatican II never envisioned that the Mass would be changed so completely as happened in 1969. They never envisioned the altar being turned around, communion standing and in the hand, extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist, altar girls, the destruction of the high altars, removal of the communion rails, liturgical dance, or even the sign of peace, to name just a few things. Our current Pope, I believe, is trying, ever so slowly, to return to the true vision of Vatican II. As he said, “I am convinced that the crisis in the Church that we are experiencing today is to a large extent due to the disintegration of the liturgy.” The changes we will see in the next few weeks is an attempt to reverse that disintegtration.

 

[JRRTFAN]

I watched it. A couple of thoughts:

(1) Most people are really not that smart. Probably around 25% of Massgoers, which is a pretty sizeable chunk, are in the bottom quartile (!) in terms of intelligence in the human population.

What are your thoughts about Latin at Mass?"

Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t “bottom quartile” - by definition - mean the lowest 25%? Therefore 25% of Mass goers MUST be in the bottom 25%, 25% MUST be in the upper quartile as well. Right? 50% will be above the MEAN and 50% below. Isn’t that what the concepts mean?

As to Mass in Latin, I found the value when in the Vienna Cathedral for Sunday Mass in August. People from all over the world were gathered for Mass and it turned out to be Tridentine. Had everyone known Latin (which they did not) or had their Missal (which I did not) we would have had a common language of worship. That’s not a bad concept.

I remeber my Uncle telling me of a wartime Mass in Italy, he and several fellows attended. All had been altar servers and were able to understand everything, just like the Italians.

 

[buffalo]

What makes you say that? Do you have a source?

That is what the exorcists say.

 

[thistle]

That is what the exorcists say.

Thanks.

 

[whipp711]

The way people drive leaving my parish makes me lean towards the lower quartile being around 49.74%. Just say’n.

Back on subject. I’ve had more comments about the translation related to “why didn’t they get it right the first time?” I don’t have an answer, personally.