Apocalypse 101: Preterism and Futurism virtually useless intrinsically

[spauline]

**Conclusion: St. Paul’s Conversion is a type of the future Reunion of Christians **
**(return of all non-Catholics to Catholic Church) **

Saul was a Pharisee and he visicously persecuted the children of God, the followers of Jesus. But there came a time when he was knocked off his horse. He was shown the error of his self-righteous ways by Christ, his heart was softened, and he became one of the greatest evangelists of human history.

In a similar vein, in 1950, on the very day of the solemn dogmatic proclamation of the Assumption by the Pope, an Italian man named Bruno, was on the very site in Rome where St. Paul was martyred ,and he was preparing to murder the Pope. In brief, he had always been a violent man and had abused his dear humble, Catholic wife. Earlier, through much prodding, she had finally persuaded Bruno to do the First Friday devotions that Jesus promised final perseverance to, who would Confess and receive the Holy Eucharist on 9 consecutive First Fridays (per the visions of St. Margaret Mary Alocoque of the late 1600’s).

But at some point after completing these devotions, Bruno was led away into extreme, hard hearted Protestant Fundamentalism and he violently cast aside his Marian devotions. He began to constantly and vehemently deny all of the Traditional beliefs about Mary: Mary was NOT immaculately conceived, she was NOT Assumed into heaven, she was NOT perpetually a Virgin. So again, on this very day in 1950, he was on this very site of St. Paul’s death and preparing to murder the Pope before he proclaimed the wondrous dogma of Mary’s Assumption. His children were playing near a grotto when they ran to him and told him that there was a beautiful lady there.

He went, and then Mary reached out her heavenly arms and said, “Come, now, my child and stop this nonsense, what you have done has saved you (First Fridays)”, and with that, she proceeded to, according to Bruno, remove what were like scales from his eyes, and then he could behold her beauty. She then went on to proceed to reinforce to him that all that Mother Church said of her was true. After that miraculous appearance, Bruno’s heart was softened and he came back to Catholicism and worked in love and dilligence to bring Fundamentalists back to the Church.

So then, here’s the conclusion: the modern Fundamentalists presume that they will not suffer the chastisement, that they will be “raptured away” (because Christ is Risen! The cross is gone), and they angrily blaspheme Mary and assault her children. So when the Minor Chastisement comes and millions of hard-hearted Fundamentalists are plunged into horrors unthinkable, when they are not raptured, and come to realize that suffering has merit and that we can help save people through uniting our sufferings with Christ (Collossians: “I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ”), it will be MARY, the ever glorious and perpetual Virgin, the Mother of God, the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, the most humble of all daughters of God, who shall KNOCK the Fundamentalists off their horse and pull the scales from their eyes, even as they were from St. Paul.

Mary, shall say to them, “NT Saul, NT Saul, why do you persecute Me?”

And the Fundamentalists shall say to Her, “Who are you, holy Lady?”

And she shall respond, “I am your MOTHER, whom you persecute!”

Praise the Lord Jesus Christ, his Catholic mystics have prophesied of the Reunion of Christians after the minor apostasy and tribulation. Will this not be how it takes place?

So it is that the New Eve shares in the Redemptive actions of Her Son, the New Adam.

 

[spauline]

no Catholics help me. Perhaps they are unsure whether Christians will ever be reunited.

Have hope like the CCC says: we place all our hope in Christ’s Eucharistic prayer, the benevolence of the Eternal Unseen Father, and the love of the Holy Spirit to bring it about.

yes, there is always a dark side first. For in Judaism, from the eternal first words of Written Scripture, first comes evening in the day, THEN the morning. First darkness, THEN the light. FIRST, Christ dies, THEN He rises.

Therefore, yes, we have seen that Christ’s prayer implies first darkness: Christ’s full children, especially the fathers he gave to them, failed morally, they fell and gave scandal. Because of this, the sheep were scattered, the schism because of Peter’s fall, the heretical rebellion because of the fall of the other fathers. And so being scattered, and not loving one another, the world has lost the ability to believe in the Son.

So then yes, Christ’s prayer has implied a beginning dark side, the evening comes first.

But why not light? Must Christ’s prayer have only a negative connotation? For does not God always follow the darkness with light?

Therefore, let us contemplate a possible mystery: that first, because the darkness of division, the world loses faith in the Son, and the Father Who sent Him.

But behold, a chastisement cometh, that humanity that had turned aside from all truth, passes through an apocalyptic cataclysm that shews them the true nature of their darkness, a darkness they consider light. But, moreover, the partial darknesses of the heretics are also shown, so that heretics and apostates, and all others alike, in seeing the darknesses shown for what they truly are, by their consequences, the world is able to see the fullness of light, the glorious Catholic Church. And so recognizing the true light, the children that had been scattered come home to their true Mother, the Catholic Church, and this reunion, this RESTORATION of unity of the Father’s children and the disciples of the Son, ENABLES the world to believe again, to come back to the Father and Son, and the Holy Spirit binding them, there is an age of peace.

This is what I see. It goes against Augustine’s wheat and tares, but it is what I see.

I no longer live by Augustine, but by the mystics, who have seen these things. And I have faith in them because I can, because Mother Church says I can.

I have faith, that they can be one again, and that the world will believe on the Son again.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Hey, everyone. I just got back into town this afternoon from evacuating for Gustav.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know that Katrina means “cleansing”, and Gustav means “hand of God”? Put that together with it being almost 3 years exactly to the date between the two hits. I am not completely sure about this, but most of the damage in New Orleans due to Katrina happened a day or two after Katrina hit. It took that long for the complete storm surge to break levees and flood New Orleans. So the three years to the date might be closer to, or between the actual hit of Katrina on the Mississippi Gulf Coast (which devestated the coast) and the levees breaking in New Orleans. Katrina hit August 29.

I just thought that very interesting…especially with the 3 year almost to the day point. What do you think?

 

[Ed_Rand]

So then, here’s the conclusion: the modern Fundamentalists presume that they will not suffer the chastisement, that they will be “raptured away” (because Christ is Risen! The cross is gone), and they angrily blaspheme Mary and assault her children. So when the Minor Chastisement comes and millions of hard-hearted Fundamentalists are plunged into horrors unthinkable, when they are not raptured, and come to realize that suffering has merit and that we can help save people through uniting our sufferings with Christ (Collossians: “I fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ”), it will be MARY, the ever glorious and perpetual Virgin, the Mother of God, the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, the most humble of all daughters of God, who shall KNOCK the Fundamentalists off their horse and pull the scales from their eyes, even as they were from St. Paul.

Since I’ve learned that it is Church teaching that the Church will follow Christ in His passion, I have come to link teachings of the Rapture with Peter’s rebuke of Christ regarding His own passion. “God forbid, Lord!, No such thing shall ever happen to you.”

And so we know that the rapture is quite a deadly deception: “Get behind me, Satan!”

It couldn’t be any clearer.

 

[Muzhik]

Greetings! A (hopefully) quick question:

You said in your first message that the world will end “… when humanity as a near whole … utterly rejects all sources of Divine Truth above and no longer seeks the graces of God to live these truths, and, IN SUCH A MANNER that, there is no practical way for them to be restored to faith and pursuit of virtue.”

Now I remember reading some time back about the Nephellim, apparently a race of creatures, cross-breed between humans and fallen angels. You could look at the story of the Nephellim as a warning against mixing DNA from different species, particularly against mixing human and non-human DNA. Do you see the desire for people to “improve” humanity as a tipping scale of “rejecting all sources of Divine Truth…”?

<><

 

[spauline]

Greetings! A (hopefully) quick question:

You said in your first message that the world will end “… when humanity as a near whole … utterly rejects all sources of Divine Truth above and no longer seeks the graces of God to live these truths, and, IN SUCH A MANNER that, there is no practical way for them to be restored to faith and pursuit of virtue.”

Now I remember reading some time back about the Nephellim, apparently a race of creatures, cross-breed between humans and fallen angels. You could look at the story of the Nephellim as a warning against mixing DNA from different species, particularly against mixing human and non-human DNA. Do you see the desire for people to “improve” humanity as a tipping scale of “rejecting all sources of Divine Truth…”?

<><

Umm, Muzhik,

This is really like a nonsensical question. Already,the ideologies of the modern minor apostasy are utterly opposed to Divine Truth. It seems that alot of my stuff is not being fully understood.

The summary of the apostasy was in the false prophet’s two horns, which i will summarize again:

I. Anti-Baptism: Have no concern for Divine Truth or His Will.

II. Anti-Marriage (spiritually): man fornicating with the creation rather than marrying God: secular messianism, or materialism.

Already, the ideologies of modern times–atheistic materialism, and relativistic, hedonistic materialism-- represent thist utter depravity. The only thing is, it is not yet incurable. The chastisement will restore humanity.

Plus, I am wary of taking things like Genesis literally. It is non-literal history.

I don’t know if this helps. If you still don’t get it, go back and read the article on the false prophet and the two horns.

 

[spauline]

The Beast: not EU but fallen nature of man

Fundamentalists argue that because beasts in Daniel were symbols of individual kingdoms and empires, that hence, the NT Apocalypse beast must be similar.

And this is their problem: they fail to understand the difference between Divine Revelation in the OT sense, and in the NT sense.

In the OT, things are largely temporal, because that is the nature of the OT covenant: God introduced many physical things to be foreshadowings of what would be the spiritual realities of the NT.

Hence, the Jews only see dimly: for them, the consequences of the fall are PHYSICAL death.

But Christ’s revelation unveils the root: My Father’s Children, You do not understand!! Physical death is only the SYMPTOM of your fall. The reason you die PHYSICALLY is because you have first died SPIRITUALLY.

Now, then, Christ has unveiled the root of what truly drives history: SPIRITUAL conditions.

That is, this is the law of history: to the degree that humanity knows, accepts and seeks out Divine Truth and Grace, there shall be peace on earth, and to the degree that they do not, there shall be problems.

But the Jews, much less humanity as a whole, are not ready to handle this immediately. (“You can’t HAAAANDLE the truth!” http://www.christiandiscussionforums.org/v/images/smilies/tongue.gif) Therefore, God must first bring an introductory covenant that will use the very things of this Creation as PHYSICAL signs of the SPIRITUAL realities that will be revealed when the fullness is imparted, that is, when Messiah comes.

And so it is that in the OT apocalypse, seeing as “salvation” is, for the Jews, the literal PHYSICAL land of Israel, a TEMPORAL kingdom (as opposed to the spiritual kingdom of heaven), God must meet the Jews where they are are at. Hence, the OT apocalypse must reveal to the Jews the TEMPORAL kingdoms that shall arise in opposition to them, in the times leading up to Messiah.

But with Christ, this has changed. The NT Kingdom is no longer a literal PHYSICAL Kingdom that dwells in a LITERAL TEMPORAL land, but is a SPIRITUAL Kingdom. Moreover, Christ unveils what truly drives history: the constant struggle between the fallen nature of man and God’s saving grace! Therefore, the evil temporal powers of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and then Rome, are intrinsically in and of themselves, that is, in terms of geography, not the problem. It is rather the fallen nature of man, driven according to the same perennial lies of the dragon from the beginning (opposing the Divine Truth and Will, and exalting oneself and the Creation above God), ***that is the root of the rise of evil empires. ***

Consequently, the beast of Revelation no longer prophecies of individual kingdoms or temporal powers, but veils, within its symbolism, the fallen nature of man that has assaulted the righteous from the foundation of the world, that is, beginning in the garden with the Fall.

hence, the heads and kings of the beast, as in Revelation 17, are no longer confined to mere temporal kingdoms, but represent the punctuated stages of the fallen nature that arise in the WHOLE of salvation history.

And this is the clear meaning of the days of creation and the wounding and healing of the heads of the beast: behold, Christ cannot have been fallen when carrying the cross, and walking and carrying the cross at the same time. Similarly, Christ cannot be both crucified and dead and risen at the same time. NO!!! FIRST, Christ dies, THEN, Christ is RISEN! FIRST, Christ falls, THEN Christ gets up!

Just as in a day, it cannot be both EVENING and MORNING at the same time. NO!!! Evening CAME, and morning FOLLOWED!

In a similar vein, a head of the beast cannot be both mortally wounded and alive at the same time. Either the head of the beast is healthy, or it is mortally wounded.

Therefore, the beast veils the mystery of the progress of salvation history. Salvation history is NOT like the Wheat and Tares, with evil and good coexisting in equal quantities across history, gradually maturing, and then facing ultimate conflict. NO!!! FIRST, EVIL prevails, THEN Goodness prevails. FIRST, comes the darkness of SIN, THEN comes the redemption of light.

The seven heads of the beast that are extended to eight are then revealing the following mystery: salvation history will consist of eight epochs from beginning to end: each epoch begins with a prevalence of the fallen nature, followed a stage of the redemption of that manifestation of the fallen nature. First darkness, then light, then darkness, then light, for a succession of eight times, from the original fall of man to the New Creation inclusive.

Therefore, the beast of the NT is no longer confined to individual kingdoms. It is much broader. It is the image of the stages of the fall of man, the SUBfalls of the human race.

I will write more later.

 

[spauline]

Here are the stages of the beast, which are truly an EXPLICIT reflection of what has occurred in history, and will occur, unto the end.

from Revelation 17:9-11

“Five have fallen”:

I. The Fall and Pre-Flood Corruption
II. Babel
III. Egypt
IV. The Intermediate pre-exile Jewish Apostasy
VI. The OT Antichrist Antiochus (Maccabees story)

“One is”:

VI. Pagan Rome (Pagan Persecution and Resistance to Conversion)

“The Other has not yet come”:

VII. TODAY’s Minor Secular Apostasy

“And the beast which was and is not, even he is the eighth…”:

VIII. The Great Apostasy and NT Antichrist

 

[Ed_Rand]

Here are the stages of the beast, which are truly an EXPLICIT reflection of what has occurred in history, and will occur, unto the end.

from Revelation 17:9-11

“Five have fallen”:

I. The Fall and Pre-Flood Corruption
II. Babel
III. Egypt
IV. The Intermediate pre-exile Jewish Apostasy
VI. The OT Antichrist Antiochus (Maccabees story)

“One is”:

VI. Pagan Rome (Pagan Persecution and Resistance to Conversion)

“The Other has not yet come”:

VII. TODAY’s Minor Secular Apostasy

“And the beast which was and is not, even he is the eighth…”:

VIII. The Great Apostasy and NT Antichrist

You are not fond of calling the current Apostasy the antichrist, you reserve that for the evil that arises after the millenium. I want to know, do you see the rest of the prophecy of Revelation, the trumpets, bowls, etc. happening this time around? Will we see the abomination of desolation this time? Will this be the Church’s passion? Will the antichrist and false prophet be personified this time, or next time, or both?

 

[spauline]

You are not fond of calling the current Apostasy the antichrist, you reserve that for the evil that arises after the millenium. I want to know, do you see the rest of the prophecy of Revelation, the trumpets, bowls, etc. happening this time around? Will we see the abomination of desolation this time? Will this be the Church’s passion? Will the antichrist and false prophet be personified this time, or next time, or both?

hi ed,

loaded question

the spirit of antichrist is in all stages of the beast. The spirit of the antichrist is simply the spirit of the fallen nature, and the fallen nature is summarized in the dragon’s lies from the beginning, in the garden. Remember my discourse on the false prophet being the theological essence of the dragon’s lies? Anti-baptism (who cares about the Divine Truth and Will), anti-marriage (our end is not to marry God but commit spiritual fornication with the Creation, utopia through materialism).

Therefore, especially in the modern minor secular apostasy, is the spirit of antichrist alive and well. hence, we are already in Revelation 13 in a figurative sense.

Please note, Revelation is MULTI-layered. hence, Revelation 13 is, in a sense, fulfilled in any of the greater ages of sin, from the fall all the way to today. In a similar vein, the persecutions of Revelation 14-15 shew forth how God’s People have suffered under evil repeatedly in history. The vials of wrath show forth how God has also judged evil repeatedly in history.

Therefore, we live currently in Revelation 13, the beast being the apostasy of today, and the false prophet being the world’s disregard of Divine Truth and its exaltation of secular messianism.

The minor chastisement that cometh shall be the fulfillment of the Vials of Revelation 16, when humanity passes the consequences of their inquity (Our Lady’s annihilation of entire nations fits here as well).

so, yes, you are right, I do not see the literal antichrist and false prophet coming until the great apostasy, that comes at the very end of the world, after the age of peace dissolves. In that stage, the beast and false prophet will still be fulfilled figuratively, because the same lies of today shall be believed then, the same lies all the stages of iniquity.

BUT, in addtion, there will be a literal antichrist and false prophet. The persecutions of antichrist will indeed be fulfill Revelation 14-15 again, and the Vials of wrath will be fulfilled again in the great tribulation.

Multi-dimensionality is the key, Ed.

BTW, the trumpets are already past, don’t you remember? It seems you guys are not digesting my stuff.

I see the trumpets as allegorical, describing the progressive spiritual digression from Nicae to present.

The Seals are indicative of pagan Rome, the purgative phase.

The Trumpets, the Illuminative Phase (1700 - present)

the Vials (on one level), Martyrdom, as well as the respective tribulations, minor and great.

Hope this helps. Again, I’m multidimensional.

 

[Ed_Rand]

BTW, the trumpets are already past, don’t you remember? It seems you guys are not digesting my stuff.

I see the trumpets as allegorical, describing the progressive spiritual digression from Nicae to present.

The Seals are indicative of pagan Rome, the purgative phase.

The Trumpets, the Illuminative Phase (1700 - present)

the Vials (on one level), Martyrdom, as well as the respective tribulations, minor and great.

Hope this helps. Again, I’m multidimensional.

I remember that you said the trumpets were past. I also try to remember that this is your opinion and may only be one layer. That is not to say that your description is quite “illuminative” I just think there may also be the literal fulfillment that we have not seen. I think you are bursting with insight. You have so much to teach. And you can play Pink Floyd like a madman!

But you didn’t fully answer one part of my question. The Church teaches that we must follow Christ in his passion, do you see that as occuring during this “night” or the one to come after the “day of rest”?

 

[spauline]

I remember that you said the trumpets were past. I also try to remember that this is your opinion and may only be one layer. That is not to say that your description is quite “illuminative” I just think there may also be the literal fulfillment that we have not seen. I think you are bursting with insight. You have so much to teach. And you can play Pink Floyd like a madman!

But you didn’t fully answer one part of my question. The Church teaches that we must follow Christ in his passion, do you see that as occuring during this “night” or the one to come after the “day of rest”?

thanks for the compliments, Ed!

Yes, I agree, these are just my opinions and there can be other layers of meaning, so that the Trumpets could still be fulfilled.

About the Passion, sorry I didn’t comment. I would say in a certain sense, the pagan Roman persecutions were a Passion, the persecution of the communists in the modern age was a passion for Eastern Christians, Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant combined.

In a certain sense, we face a white, or dry, passion in the West (psychological and social persecution, and now, to a certain extent, economic persecution [having to give up jobs because of our faith]).

It would seem, however, that the supreme fulfillment of the Passion is the persecution of Antichrist at the very end. I read a mystic prophesied that Christ will not be satisfied with the Church until the cup of the blood of the martyrs is overflowing. I think we can surmise that with scientific knowledge being supreme, man shall devise ways to torture and kill the human person that are the most horrific. Lord have mercy, remember, there is no purgatory after the final judgement. hence, whatever temporal suffering remains for us, we must do it on earth. Lord help us.

I can only surmise the martyrs deaths shall be the worst in times of Antichrist.

That, I would say, would be the supreme Passion.

Hope this helps!

 

[spauline]

The Two Witnesses and the Reunion of Christians

A countless number of Catholic mystics prophesy that toward the end of the world, there shall occur a minor apostasy and tribulation, after which will occur the reunion of Christians and a general age of peace.

I do see the reunion of Christians because of the power of suffering.

Put it this way: the modern materialistic advancements accelerate and amplify the consequences of errors.

Therefore, I see the coming minor chastisement as a vehicle through which, humanity gets a MASSIVE, HORRIFIC taste of the consequences of their errors, so as to manifest their true nature.

I see this prefigured in the vials of wrath in the Apocalypse. Initially, the supreme darkness is deceptive. Humanity is able to tell itself that there will be no consequences, neither temporal nor spiritual nor eternal, for the sins they defiantly practice: fornication, artificial birth control, divorce, abortion, euthanasia, etc. These things are seen rather as salvific and freeing. Similarly, deluded by unparalleled scientific and technological achievement, humanity is seduced into thinking they can secure utopia purely from these developments alone. This is the imagery of Revelation 13, the seduction of the beast and false prophet.

but behold, intrinsically, these lies in the end breed destruction and death, and the reason is simple: If one has not peace with God, eventually, one cannot have peace with his fellow man, who is a sinner. For if you cannot love God, who is worthy of all love, who is Infinite love Himself, how can you love your neighbor, who is a sinner, and far less than perfect.

hence, as in Babel, humanity seduces itself to cooperate in selfish ambition, to storm the gates of heaven, to build a materialistic utopia. But the end of such a lie is death: eventually, the selfish passions shall conflict, and the result is self destruction.

so the vials bring with them the consequences.

already,the consequences of the sexual revolution and abortion are beginning: abortion not only murders children, creating crisis of who will take care of parents. Abortion wounds women terribly in psychology and spirit. Divorce rends asunder families. children do not trust. The collapse of the family order breeds further moral chaos, the collapse of safety in communities, etc.

In time, the consequences shall be devastating.

The point I make, notsmart, is there are still many Christians of other traditions that seek God in sincerity. In time, as the consequences of immorality and doctrine increase and manifest themselves, they shall understand, and more and more they will see that Catholicism already knew these things. In time then, those that seek honestly shall grow closer to the Church, approaching reunion.

This is precisely what I see in the mystics prophecies that the reunion of Christians occurs after the minor apostasy and Tribulation. It is not just a prophecy of WHAT. We can see from Catholicism WHY it happens INTRINSICALLY: and it is this: again, the severe and traumatic cataclysms and horrors that come from the fruits of the errors of morals and doctrine in effect show the darknesses for what they are, hence, pointing humanity to the solution, which is the light, which, of course, in fullness, is only found in Catholicism.

consider the similar theology of Revelation 11, with the Two Witnesses. When the beast murders the Two Witnesses, they lie dead in the streets, and the world rejoices over their death, celebrating and sending gifts. This is a type of the modern apostasy, where the world finally considers itself free of the need for religion (Scritpure and Tradition). But a time comes when they stand upon their feet, and a great fear falls on those who see them. Again, the chastisement and its horrors begins to show forth the true nature of the darknesses that they considered light.

the assumption of the witnesses is then the glorious triumph of their truth, humanity rediscovering the fullness of the Gospel.

I don’t if this helps understand how I approach Revelation?

sorry for the diatribe, but I like to explain myself as best as I can.

 

[spauline]

First of all, WHAT is the question trying to be answered by “the mystery of iniquity”?

Of course, it is NOT “WHEN will Jesus return literally”.

A Catholic apologist here at CAF, not knowing the answer, just guessed “why people commit evil”.

(Edited)

First of all, the question of the “mystery of iniquity” is an APOCALYPTIC question, and the apocalypse is not in its direct sense about the spiritual psychology of INDIVIDUAL human creatures, but rather, the spiritual psychology of Salvation HISTORY, that is, God’s Plan for redeeming the whole human race.

What then is the question of “the mystery of iniquity”. It appears to be this:

At the end of the world, we know that the fallen nature of man will be practically incurable, in the sense that the vast majority of the Gentiles will be in apostasy, and in such a condition in which this apostasy cannot be practically cured, even when the consequences of the apostasy come (the Great Tribulation).

The “mystery” of iniquity is not then THAT this will be the condition at the end of the world (we already know that), but WHY and also the related question of HOW the Church will know this.

Remember, we know not the day or the hour, but the Church will, as the CCC confirms, REVEAL this mystery in the times of the great apostasy, which implies, the Church will UNDERSTAND when humanity is incurable spiritually. They will also understand WHY the Jews will be converting.

Most Catholics do not even know this theology, much less do they care.

But shouldn’t they, at least to some extent?

If it is asked, WHY should they care, let’s start with today:

In case you didn’t realize it, we no longer live in Catholic Christendom. We live in a world in which most traditional Christian civs are in APOSTASY or APOSTATE-LIKE culture.

And we are not using the word “apostasy” lightly, as in a liberal dismissive person who says, “there was the arian apostasy, and the Orthodox apostasy, and the Protestant apostasy”. We mean an apostasy in the sense that the spiritual condition in its essence is utterly depraved (atheistic or relativistic materialism).

Is it not, therefore, a pressing question pressing that since some nearly three continents of civilization are in supreme apostasy, that we should contemplate whether humanity is approaching the incurable condition.

Which leaves us with a big question: can the secular apostasy be reversed yet, or is it accelerating in such a manner that it will overtake the near whole of the remaining world AND be incurable?

IOW, the question is this: is the current form of secular apostasy incurable?

(Edited)

More and more, some Catholics are beginning to care, but they are a remnant.

Much of the debate is then actually this: between whether the long standing Augustinian thought is the proper expression of the mystery, or if, rather, the general approved mystics scenario is the one to go by.

From what I’ve heard, Father Groschel sides with Augustine, and derivatively the 1600 year Church tendency. In that view, what we now await is the maturation of the good and evil, the good into fully faithful Catholics, and the bad into secular apostasy, and then, at some point, the apostates will dominate, the Antichrist will come, and the world will end.

The mystics, according to decades of EWTN research of Donnavan and Birch, suggest something different: a conditional chastisement will cause humanity to turn back to God, Christians will be reunited, and the Catholic Gospel not only restored in the traditional civs, but that the near whole of the Gentiles shall embrace the Gospel for a great age of peace. Then, after an indeterminate period of spiritual prosperity, there will occur the irrevocable apostasy, when the world ends.

I suppose other wise guy might suggest that the world will fall away and come back 24 more times after this one. That of course then introduces absurd questions: if the world is going to fall away 25 total times, and be restored 24 of them, so that number 25 is incurable (kind of like you can go to confession for mortal sin multiple times), why would 25 incurable, and not number 17? Or 83? This is really where critical thinking suggests the possibilities are probably between the two scenarios we have.

Why? Well think about it: is not the sensible debate between whether a SINGLE learning experience is possible or not, and no more? Which is another way of saying, if MORE THAN ONE learning experience were possible (an apostasy followed by a tribulation that restores faith epochally), why not then continue indefinitely? For if man could fall away a SECOND time and come back, why not induct, a third time, a fourth time, etc? For if man can fall away and be healed more than one time epochally in the New Covenant, is not the number of times after the first that he is restored arbitrary?

but then of course, we also realize that the solution the mystery must already be veiled in Scripture and Tradition? Which is another way of saying, if there will be more than one learning experience, the Scripture and Tradition we already have must somehow veil the solution of why it would be more than one?

therefore, even before considering the data of Scripture and Tradition, it seems to make sense that the debate should be reduced to the question of whether humanity shall pass through a single chastisement that is learning experience (that is, from which they are restored to faith, that is, the mystics’ scenario), or else none at all (the Augustinian model).

for what it is worth, I will be sharing how, in fact, the mystics scenario is the perfect solution in light of some very major evidence of Scripture and Tradition (namely, the days of creation and the beast, as well as the history of the Jews being a type of the history of the Church, as well as the way of the Catholic saint [which has three stages]).

But also, the debate is therefore not merely between these two scenarios, but WHY, given which of the scenarios will occur, THAT one occurs and not the other.

Which is another way of saying that history is not AIMLESS but ordered and follows a spiritual path that is structured, according to the fallen nature of Original Sin, and the Redemptive possibilities of God’s grace, as well as other stages already evident in the Tradition (such as the spirituality of the way of the saint).

IOW, it is that the history is truly guided by tendencies of the struggle between sin and grace that bring forth an order that is SENSIBLE, based on psychology, spirituality, and theology, and that therefore, whichever spiritual scenario ends up being the one that happens, that it was MEANT to happen according to God’s Plan, and that God will have truly brought the greatest possible good that He could, given our fallen nature.

This therefore, ends up showing that the apocalypse is not what most people think it is: it is actually precisely about the spiritual psychology and theology of the WHOLE of Salvation History, the spiritual forces and conditions that guide it, the constant tension between sin and grace.

And if this were not enough, I am making a terribly bold gesture: that Augustine’s wheat and tare model is NOT in fact what will happen, and that the mystics’ scenario is what in effect will, and that the mystics scenario is the best model that can fits the data of Scripture and Tradition so as to provide the mercy and goodness of God in the most positive light.

and the sad thing is, there appear to be very few persons who are able to grasp these concepts, and at the same time even give the time of day to this type of discussion, AND that will agree with it if they shed their pride and assumptions that the long standing thinking is in fact leading one from the deeper answers to the mystery.

Later, I will start to present the arguments that I believe clearly show the deficiencies of Augustinian assumptions and doctrine.

 

[Sabbath_Keeper]

Is this your personal opinion or official RCC teaching? This seems some what convoluted and disjointed. Also, you do not seem to understand Revelation in relation to Daniel. Do you think that neither of these have any relationship what so ever as to content? It looks as if you’re trying to force prophetic symbolism into theories that came centuries after the revelation was given. If this isn’t an official RCC teaching, as are both the Pretersim and Futurism views, both written by Jesuits, then is there going to be any review and critic of this? Just curious, as this is a very important issue and should not be taken lightly.