Apologetic Argument

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Faith1960

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I’ve been reading a booklet and articles written by Jeff Zweerink, from Reasons To Believe. He says ‘an infinite Level 1 universe does not argue a Creator, it just removes one currently used apologetic argument.’

What is that currently used apologetic argument that he’s talking about?

reasons.org/articles/mult…lity-arguments

Can anyone help?

“I can do all things through Christ who strengtheneth me.” Philippians 4:13
 
This guy is a Christian so I don’t think that’s what he meant.
 
This guy is a Christian so I don’t think that’s what he meant.
Why do you think so? Looking at reasons.org/articles/multiverse-musings—probability-arguments it looks like the part about “royal flush” says something rather similar… The argument goes (more or less) “It is very unlikely that the randomly chosen physical constants would have been compatible with life. Life exists. Therefore, it is likely that physical constants haven’t been chosen randomly etc.”. “Multiverse” would weaken the first premise.

As far as I understand, his point in the part you cited is that “fine tuning” is not the only argument. For example, St. Anselm’s Ontological argument, arguments of St. Thomas Aquinas, Pascal’s Wager are not affected by “multiverse”. And, of course, then there is a problem that existence of “multiverse” hasn’t been proved anyway… 🙂
Because he believes that God is present, working in our lives and that of the universe right now, not just at the time He created it.
Yes, but “fine tuning” argument is not meant to show that anyway.
 
Why do you think so? Looking at reasons.org/articles/multiverse-musings—probability-arguments it looks like the part about “royal flush” says something rather similar… The argument goes (more or less) “It is very unlikely that the randomly chosen physical constants would have been compatible with life. Life exists. Therefore, it is likely that physical constants haven’t been chosen randomly etc.”. “Multiverse” would weaken the first premise.
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I don’t understand. Could you please rephrase?
 
Why do you think so? Looking at reasons.org/articles/multiverse-musings—probability-arguments it looks like the part about “royal flush” says something rather similar… The argument goes (more or less) “It is very unlikely that the randomly chosen physical constants would have been compatible with life. Life exists. Therefore, it is likely that physical constants haven’t been chosen randomly etc.”. “Multiverse” would weaken the first premise.

As far as I understand, his point in the part you cited is that “fine tuning” is not the only argument. For example, St. Anselm’s Ontological argument, arguments of St. Thomas Aquinas, Pascal’s Wager are not affected by “multiverse”. And, of course, then there is a problem that existence of “multiverse” hasn’t been proved anyway… 🙂

Yes, but “fine tuning” argument is not meant to show that anyway.
Maybe I’m confused, what does it mean?
 
I don’t understand. Could you please rephrase?
OK, I’ll try.

First, there is the “fine tuning argument”. It starts with noticing that there some things that had to be exactly as they are in order for us to exist. For example, if the physical constants were just a little different, stars wouldn’t have formed and, of course, there would be no Earth and no humans on it. Now, if the constants were chosen at random, or (what is mostly equivalent) they just are what they are with no explanation, it is much more likely that we’d end up with a “wrong” set. But we ended up with a “right” set, thus it is likely that it was chosen deliberately. And then we can ask who could have chosen them. As you can see, this argument does not say anything about how God maintains the universe in existence. But it does lead one towards existence of “original” creator or “designer” of the universe.

Second, let’s see what would happen to this argument if we knew that “multiverse” exists. Then we have many universes. Let’s say that each of them can have different physical constants. Then we only need one universe that holds us to have suitable constants. And one “lucky” universe out of many is more likely than one out of one. Thus the premise “It is very unlikely that the randomly chosen physical constants would have been compatible with life.” becomes weaker. With it the whole argument becomes weaker.

Third, other arguments are not affected. Actually, at the moment I don’t know what to explain there…

So, is that clearer now?
 
OK, I’ll try.

First, there is the “fine tuning argument”. It starts with noticing that there some things that had to be exactly as they are in order for us to exist. For example, if the physical constants were just a little different, stars wouldn’t have formed and, of course, there would be no Earth and no humans on it. Now, if the constants were chosen at random, or (what is mostly equivalent) they just are what they are with no explanation, it is much more likely that we’d end up with a “wrong” set. But we ended up with a “right” set, thus it is likely that it was chosen deliberately. And then we can ask who could have chosen them. As you can see, this argument does not say anything about how God maintains the universe in existence. But it does lead one towards existence of “original” creator or “designer” of the universe.

Second, let’s see what would happen to this argument if we knew that “multiverse” exists. Then we have many universes. Let’s say that each of them can have different physical constants. Then we only need one universe that holds us to have suitable constants. And one “lucky” universe out of many is more likely than one out of one. Thus the premise “It is very unlikely that the randomly chosen physical constants would have been compatible with life.” becomes weaker. With it the whole argument becomes weaker.

Third, other arguments are not affected. Actually, at the moment I don’t know what to explain there…

So, is that clearer now?
I get the first paragraph but not the second.

Are you saying in the second paragraph that it’s unlikely our universe, one out of possibly many, was designed by God, that it was random or luck or that it wasn’t luck or random, but that God created it?
 
How would the multiverse eliminate fine tuning?
Because I believe currently, atheists like Dawkins and Hawkings, are found to acknowledge that the chances of us existing or coming together by chance are so improbable and remote that they are rationally impossible to believe (Hence fine tuning and intelligent design), thus, when they introduce the multi universe theory, they try to say that there are so many ‘failed’ attemtps (the other billion trillion or whatever number they want to make up of other universes that arn’t scientifically observable, so the multi universe theory can never change from anything but a theory) of multi universes that have failed, and thus we are just the lucky universe, 1 out of the other trillion billion theorised failed ones that just happened to produce life completely by astronomical luck/chance.

So the more improbable it is, the more multi universes they theorise in order to make this universe seem not as improbable as to be rationally impossible to believe happened by chance, just ‘the astronomically lucky one.’

I believe it’s a last ditch chance to try and escape what I believe should be obvious to them, intelligent design.

Hope I have helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
I would also like to share with you an extract out of the book linked in my signature.
Extract from the book 'Unseen - New Evidence':
To follow the concept of a purely material universe to it’s logical conclusion, say’s professor John Lennox, pulls the rug out from under the New Atheists. If, as they claim, there is nothing in the universe except matter and energy, some of which blindly and randomly evolved into the human mind, then how can we rely on our minds in the first place to arrive at this conclusion. Our minds are themselves, according to this Darwinian view, mere random purposeless movements of atoms, unable to recognise truth, or beauty, or goodness, to know anything, or to do science for that matter? And yet other scientists of undisputed intellectual stature with diametrically opposed views concur that, ‘The reason why what is in my little mind can understand a bit of what is out there is because both of them are traceable back to the same grand designer.’
God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
 
I get the first paragraph but not the second.

Are you saying in the second paragraph that it’s unlikely our universe, one out of possibly many, was designed by God, that it was random or luck or that it wasn’t luck or random, but that God created it?
No, I am not saying that. I am saying that if there were other universes, it would be harder to prove that God created the universe using this specific argument, that it would give less certainty to the conclusion. In that case one could still use other arguments. And some of them arguably allow us to reach more useful and more certain conclusions (that is, for example, that God exists as Pure Act or First Cause) anyway.

Also, it has yet to be proved that other universes actually exist… 🙂
 
Because I believe currently, atheists like Dawkins and Hawkings, are found to acknowledge that the chances of us existing or coming together by chance are so improbable and remote that they are rationally impossible to believe (Hence intelligent design), thus, when they introduce the multi universe theory, they try to say that there are so many ‘failed’ attemtps (the other billion trillion or whatever number they want to make up of other universes that arn’t scientifically observable, so the multi universe theory can never change from anything but a theory) of multi universes that have failed, and thus we are just the lucky universe, 1 out of the other trillion billion theoried failed ones that just happened to produce life completely by astronomical luck, chance.

So the more improbable it is, the more multi universes they theorise in order to make this universe seem not as improbable as to be rationally impossible to believe happened by chance, just ‘the astronomically lucky one.’

I believe it’s a last ditch chance to try and escape what I believe should be obvious to them, intelligent design.

Hope I have helped

God Bless

Thank you for reading
Josh
To clarify something: The level 1multiverse is simply what lies beyond our observable universe. It just means that source is likely to not end at the edge of the observant universe.
 
No, I am not saying that. I am saying that if there were other universes, it would be harder to prove that God created the universe using this specific argument, that it would give less certainty to the conclusion. In that case one could still use other arguments. And some of them arguably allow us to reach more useful and more certain conclusions (that is, for example, that God exists as Pure Act or First Cause) anyway.

Also, it has yet to be proved that other universes actually exist… 🙂
It’s pretty certain that the Level 1 multiverse exists.
 
No, I am not saying that. I am saying that if there were other universes, it would be harder to prove that God created the universe using this specific argument, that it would give less certainty to the conclusion. In that case one could still use other arguments. And some of them arguably allow us to reach more useful and more certain conclusions (that is, for example, that God exists as Pure Act or First Cause) anyway.

Also, it has yet to be proved that other universes actually exist… 🙂
But what is the argument Zweerink is talking about?
Sorry, but I’m confused. :confused:
 
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