Apostacy - Repentance available?

[jdemelo]

Hebrews 6: 4-6 and Lk 12:8-12 seem to indicate that Apostacy is unforgivable. cf. Heb 10:26, 33 and Heb 12:16-17.
How do we admit to repentance from Apostacy as the church permitted after denial of faith during persecution, in the mid to late third century. I know the Church overruled the Montanist position that seemed to embrace the above references that once a person apostacized they could never be re-admitted to the Table of the Lord.
Did the Church override Scripture with the Power to Loose and Bind? If not, How can we avoid the plain meaning of Heb 6:4?

 

[tkdnick]

jdemelo:

Hebrews 6: 4-6 and Lk 12:8-12 seem to indicate that Apostacy is unforgivable. cf. Heb 10:26, 33 and Heb 12:16-17.
How do we admit to repentance from Apostacy as the church permitted after denial of faith during persecution, in the mid to late third century. I know the Church overruled the Montanist position that seemed to embrace the above references that once a person apostacized they could never be re-admitted to the Table of the Lord.
Did the Church override Scripture with the Power to Loose and Bind? If not, How can we avoid the plain meaning of Heb 6:4?

I can’t speak on the Hebrews verses, but the verses in Luke make reference to a final denial of truth at a person’s death. Until that time, a person has the abililty to repent and “be saved”. (according the John Martignoni on EWTN)

 

[vern_humphrey]

jdemelo:

Hebrews 6: 4-6 and Lk 12:8-12 seem to indicate that Apostacy is unforgivable. cf. Heb 10:26, 33 and Heb 12:16-17.
How do we admit to repentance from Apostacy as the church permitted after denial of faith during persecution, in the mid to late third century. I know the Church overruled the Montanist position that seemed to embrace the above references that once a person apostacized they could never be re-admitted to the Table of the Lord.
Did the Church override Scripture with the Power to Loose and Bind? If not, How can we avoid the plain meaning of Heb 6:4?

This is why Scripture should be read in context – not taking a few verses and trying to make sense of them in isolation.

If you read Hebrews as it was written – as a complete document – you see Paul is talking about strengthening the faith of those who have become lax. This is why he says in Hebrews 6,1;
"Therefore, let us leave behind the basic teaching about Christ and advance to maturity, without laying the foundation all over again: repentance from dead works and faith in God . . . " Those who have fully fallen away are not the subject of this part of the epistle – only those who still have faith, albeit not as strongly as formerly. Paul (if, indeed Paul was the author of Hebrews) is saying, “I’m not talking about those who have completely abandoned the faith.”

 

[Todd_Easton]

Perhaps, St. Paul did not mean impossible in an absolute sense that allows for no exceptions but impossible in a general and practical sense, as in Matthew 19:23-26:
23And Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly, I say to you, it will be hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Speaking from personal experience of being in apostacy for many years, I know that I had a much more difficult time coming to faith the second time around and overcoming the additional hurdle of the “Been there, done that, and so don’t waste your time again” temptation. Thanks be to God; He doesn’t give up on anyone:
21"But if a wicked man turns away from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness which he has done he shall live. 23Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? (Ezekial 18:21-23)

 

[jdemelo]

Thank you Todd. Nice reply

 

[jdemelo]

vern humphrey:

This is why Scripture should be read in context – not taking a few verses and trying to make sense of them in isolation.

If you read Hebrews as it was written – as a complete document – you see Paul is talking about strengthening the faith of those who have become lax. This is why he says in Hebrews 6,1;
"Therefore, let us leave behind the basic teaching about Christ and advance to maturity, without laying the foundation all over again: repentance from dead works and faith in God . . . " Those who have fully fallen away are not the subject of this part of the epistle – only those who still have faith, albeit not as strongly as formerly. Paul (if, indeed Paul was the author of Hebrews) is saying, “I’m not talking about those who have completely abandoned the faith.”

I read in context. I think you underestimated my question, and failed to answer it. But I appreciate your thoughts and time.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

Dude, those Hebrews verses are tough!!

Kudos to Todd Easton’s post:wave:. Perhaps I can supply my thoughts.

This might sound odd, but perhaps you could find some Fathers or later Doctors that wrote about that subject. Ok, now I really sound Catholic!!!

Anyways, you read those passages and you think about "well, what about my friend … who … " "and what if I … " You know what I mean, you’re head is spinning thinking about how to apply that. And that’s ok.

We have promises in Scripture that God is able to keep us till the day of Judgement, that He holds us in each hand, and disciplines us (For instance Jude 24, John 10:29, and Hebrews 12:11).

The Fathers consistently wrote about those in heresy and schism, that they should be exhorted to repent and rejoin the fold that they had left. Good advice, and it sometimes did work, like many Donatists left their sect and joined/rejoined the Church.

Ok, so people in obvious rejection of the Christian faith that they once held to, I am of the opinion that it’s quite possible that they will NEVER repent. But, that shouldn’t stop us from trying to correct them. Now, we have the command of the Apostle (Titus 1:10,11) to shun factious men after the first and second warning, because they are self-condemned. Tertullian, in his Prescription Against Heretics, uses this verse to show that we shouldn’t seek to dispute on and on with heretics, but rather admonish them, and even that, only once or twice. Because heresy is self-willed (hence “self-condemned”) and they are bringing it upon themselves by their own approval.

Same way with apostacy via physical sin. You bring it upon yourself, and are wilfully rejecting the call to repentance. You may repent later, but it’s a dangerous situation to be in.
We must persevere every day.

 

[Malachi4U]

jdemelo:

Hebrews 6: 4-6 and Lk 12:8-12 seem to indicate that Apostacy is unforgivable. cf. Heb 10:26, 33 and Heb 12:16-17.

Scripture is tough on those who ‘knowingly’ turn their back on God or His Catholic Church as I seem to have done myself firsthand when I was lured into the feel good abyss of protestantism.
How do we admit to repentance from Apostacy as the church permitted after denial of faith during persecution, in the mid to late third century. Easy, come home to Rome and partake in the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

I know the Church overruled the Montanist position that seemed to embrace the above references that once a person apostacized they could never be re-admitted to the Table of the Lord.

Did the Church override Scripture with the Power to Loose and Bind?The Church gave us Sacred Scripture not vice versa. Sacred Scripture is 100% Catholic. The Church declared Scripture inspired and the Church is the pillar and truth. Sacred Scripture is a tool of the Church. Unfortunately many worship a book like a graven image. If not for the authority of the Church as given to it by Jesus then which version of Scripture would be considered inspired or inerrant?

If not, How can we avoid the plain meaning of Heb 6:4?

Remember the parable of the prodigal son? I was that son who was once dead but now have found life again and brought joy to his Father. I am sure that God smiles more now that I am back in flock, His body, His Catholic Church - even if by desire only. I pray and Hope that God forgives me for my lapse into Buffet Line Protestantism. I pray and hope my eventual return to His body, His Church has helped prove my Faith (tree) by my works (fruit). Faith without works is as dead as a tree without fruit.

On one side Scripture points to harsh punishment for those who turn on God. On another side of Scripture God forgives those who truly confess, repent and ask His forgiveness. I believe God is a forgiving God and will forgive all of us who turned on Him and/or His Catholic Church. I have no real choice but to believe this side for otherwise I am already condemned for my sins against His Church, thus Him, when I denied it and became a protestant picking and choosing what to and not to believe and how much of each.

By the way, the Catholic Church also teaches God as a forgiving God. I take comfort in that. As a Catholic I have Faith. That Faith gives me Hope. My Love for all are my works (deeds/doings).

Don’t be a schismatic and those verses you quoted won’t cause any fear. Stay loyal to God and His Catholic Church as Sacred Scripture reads.:yup: