Apostasy and Restoration in Mormonism (Mainly for Gabriel!)

[hosemonkey]

Instead, we have a 2000 year old Catholic tradition, out of which the canon of scriptures you depend on for your proofs arose, that says there was no Apostasy and that Christ created a Church with a sacramental life through which he communicates himself and bestows his grace upon us. If you undermine that Tradition, you undermine the validity of the canon of the Bible, since the Catholic Church determined that canon. That same church, on a daily basis, “reads the memoirs” of the apostles to the gathered people (Liturgy of the Word), and gathers for “the breaking of the bread” (Liturgy of the Eucharist). Similar to the rites that once existed in the Jewish temple, those rites are celebrated by priests in robes who stand before an altar and use candles and incense as part of the worship and praise of God. Those same rites (again similar to the Jewish temple) proclaim the propitiating power of the shedding of blood, only in the Christian rite it is a re-presentation of the one, eternal propitiating sacrifice of the Unblemished Lamb that ended once and for all the shedding of animal blood in the Jewish temple. Instead, the propitiating sacrifice occurs eternally in the heavenly Holy of Holies, in the presence of God, with Christ as our only High Priest. No more high priests, no more temples, no more animal sacrifice. There is only one eternal propitiating sacrifice and one High Priest who eternally sheds his own blood for you and me in the heavenly temple. And then you have the central tenet of that Tradition (that Christ gives his flesh and his blood for you to eat and drink in the form of bread and wine), which is mirrored in the words of Christ himself (John 6). Many were so upset by that idea that when Jesus proclaimed it that they turned from him in disgust and never returned to him. The idea continued to be disturbing to some even after the Ascension of Jesus. Roman authorities, when they heard what the earliest Christians were teaching and doing during “the breaking of the bread” at the altar, leveled a charge of cannibalism at the Church. But this was not cannibalism. It is Christ, giving you his body and blood to consume as the means through which he pours his graces upon you to enable you to do good by becoming one with Him, and with his Father and with all Christians everywhere, both on earth and in heaven.

I would invite you become a follower of that High Priest and accept the graces he offers you through the Eucharist. There are no absolute proofs, but the weight of the historical evidence supports the Catholic view. It does not support the viewpoint of a “prophet” on the American frontier, who most certainly did not see Jesus in the woods, translated his most famous scriptural text by peering into some magic rocks placed in a hat on his lap, frequently married other men’s wives (sometimes without those wives’ still-living husbands’ knowledge), and mis-translated writings from common Egyptian funeral papyri and called it scripture. The gaping chasm of inconsistency and illogic that characterizes LDS history and doctrine is a huge obstacle to faith to those who are acquainted with the facts. The leap of faith it requires to become a Catholic is not nearly so great. Truth lies across the Tiber, Zerinus. It’s time you quit defending the specious and baseless argument that there was a Great Apostasy and join the rest of us in Christ’s true church.

NewSeeker

Good advice Zerinus. You should follow it. Intelligent mormons in increasing numbers, are choosing Catholicism.You ignore the irrefutable evidence of the falsity of mormonism and kick against the pricks of Catholic Truth. The Catholic Church is the One True church and mormonism is the false construct of a megalomaniac con-artist. There is no comparison between the two. All your so-called “scholarship” and all the resourses of the LDS "church’ have not been able to validate the claims of mormonism and mormonism will eventually join all the failed religions of history. Better board the Barque of Peter, zerinus. Before it is too late.

 

[porthos11]

Well it didn’t work, did it? That is why Paul’s prophecy came to pass: they all have “a form of godliness,” but “deny the power thereof.” “From such,” says Paul, “turn away!” (2 Timothy 3:5).

zerinus

Some, not all. The context does not refer to a massive or total apostasy, only that some would fall away. It’s hardly the basis to claim that the power of priesthood and ecclesial governance was revoked.

And where there were remaining faithful, there was no reason that the priesthood be discontinued, because, as you said, there were those who were still part of God’s church (which actually denies a total apostasy).

And still, if Paul’s prophecy came to pass, there has to be a defining event or series thereof that are verifiable that clearly state that the priesthood disappeared after John died, or a massive doctrinal shift between the time of the Bible and the completion of the apostasy, that is, the second century.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Jesus is in heaven. The earthly head of the church was the Twelve Apostles. That was the body through whom Jesus communicated His will to the Church. That “head” was cut off when the Twelve Apostles disappeared. If your argument was valid, then no true church or religion ever apostatized, because Jesus had been the “head” of them all.

zerinus

This is very interesting zerinus, now you said the head was cut off because the twelve apostles died? Brother you could not be more farther from the truth.

No.1, the apostles are still alive in Jesus christ for one thing. They are not dead. For Our God to which Catholics serve and worship is the true God of the living, not the dead, for to God to him all are alive. Dont you remember when God said he is the God of Jacob and Moses, God confirms here that he is not God of the dead but of the living. , Maybe your god is a god of the dead?

So you see z your theory still does not hold up to the Word of God. The Spirit of eternity will always reveal falsehood when it comes against the Bride of Jesus Christ, the one Holy Catholic Apostolic church.

You see z you forgot about the communion of Saints, you have to combat eternity to try and come against this doctrine. Then there is the body of Jesus christ his Church that Pauls clearly identifies as the body of Jesus christ. Now, what is your argument about the head and the body? Are you going to claim that Jesus apostacised himself ?

That is what your mormonism in reality is trying to do; falsely accuse that the body of Jesus Christ apostacised from his head? This is not believable z. As much as you like to dialogue your commentary here; I think it is time you state the facts about this apostacy that you and your religion conjured up after 2000 years of Catholic Christian Tradition, or stop spreading this poison of Satan Lies of a pretended apostacy that never happened or will ever happen, this the body of Jesus christ has his promise. The gates of the netherworld will never prevail against Jesus Church he built upon St. Peter.

Now if you can prove that Jesus was Lying then maybe I wont waste my time again reading your commentary. So to claim an apostacy of the body of Jesus Christ is to call our dear Lord Jesus a Liar. I dont think this is your intention? Repent of these Lies and Learn from him who was once dead, but now lives eternally.

One more thought. Do you think, the Catholic Popes immediately after Peter and the successors of the apostles their Catholic Bishops, would have went to their Martyrdom refusing to deny Jesus our Lord; If the body of Jesus christ was in apostacy? These Catholic believers went to their death proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus, their is no record of them denying Jesus, only their Martyrdom proclaiming Jesus lives. Tell me does Mormonism have any great Saints such as these, to go to their death refusing to deny Jesus? The Roman Catholic church does, and guess what? they still live! Praise God!

So Peter is not dead, the apostles are not dead for to God they are all alive, For God is the God of the living not the dead. So your dead apostles z in the true reality of eternity are still alive not dead. Unless you believe in a non christian god? Remember we live in the temporal reality which returns to dust. Peter and the apostles live in the true eternal reality that never ends. But then you dont believe in the True Spirit of God, You believe the spirit is symbolic.

Good news for you though z, you will never be accused of an apostacy from the body of Jesus Christ because Mormonism denies to be a part of the body of Jesus christ to which he himself built his church upon the “Rock” Peter.
Peace be with you, and long live Peter the Vicar of Jesus christ.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

This is very interesting zerinus, now you said the head was cut off because the twelve apostles died? Brother you could not be more farther from the truth.

No.1, the apostles are still alive in Jesus christ for one thing. They are not dead. For Our God to which Catholics serve and worship is the true God of the living, not the dead, for to God to him all are alive. Dont you remember when God said he is the God of Jacob and Moses, God confirms here that he is not God of the dead but of the living. , Maybe your god is a god of the dead?

So you see z your theory still does not hold up to the Word of God. The Spirit of eternity will always reveal falsehood when it comes against the Bride of Jesus Christ, the one Holy Catholic Apostolic church.

You see z you forgot about the communion of Saints, you have to combat eternity to try and come against this doctrine. Then there is the body of Jesus christ his Church that Pauls clearly identifies as the body of Jesus christ. Now, what is your argument about the head and the body? Are you going to claim that Jesus apostacised himself ?

That is what your mormonism in reality is trying to do; falsely accuse that the body of Jesus Christ apostacised from his head? This is not believable z. As much as you like to dialogue your commentary here; I think it is time you state the facts about this apostacy that you and your religion conjured up after 2000 years of Catholic Christian Tradition, or stop spreading this poison of Satan Lies of a pretended apostacy that never happened or will ever happen, this the body of Jesus christ has his promise. The gates of the netherworld will never prevail against Jesus Church he built upon St. Peter.

Now if you can prove that Jesus was Lying then maybe I wont waste my time again reading your commentary. So to claim an apostacy of the body of Jesus Christ is to call our dear Lord Jesus a Liar. I dont think this is your intention? Repent of these Lies and Learn from him who was once dead, but now lives eternally.

One more thought. Do you think, the Catholic Popes immediately after Peter and the successors of the apostles their Catholic Bishops, would have went to their Martyrdom refusing to deny Jesus our Lord; If the body of Jesus christ was in apostacy? These Catholic believers went to their death proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus, their is no record of them denying Jesus, only their Martyrdom proclaiming Jesus lives. Tell me does Mormonism have any great Saints such as these, to go to their death refusing to deny Jesus? The Roman Catholic church does, and guess what? they still live! Praise God!

So Peter is not dead, the apostles are not dead for to God they are all alive, For God is the God of the living not the dead. So your dead apostles z in the true reality of eternity are still alive not dead. Unless you believe in a non christian god? Remember we live in the temporal reality which returns to dust. Peter and the apostles live in the true eternal reality that never ends. But then you dont believe in the True Spirit of God, You believe the spirit is symbolic.

Good news for you though z, you will never be accused of an apostacy from the body of Jesus Christ because Mormonism denies to be a part of the body of Jesus christ to which he himself built his church upon the “Rock” Peter.
Peace be with you, and long live Peter the Vicar of Jesus christ.

A post up for the Pope

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The head was the Twelve Apostles. When they disappeared, the head was cut off. No more revelations after that.

zerinus

If this is true as you believe z, then what the heck is mormonism doing around 2000 years later? Face it; if it had not been for the Roman Catholic church keeping historical records, and dieing to keep the Christian faith all these 2000 years, there would be no mormonism to get there understanding of who Jesus and the Saints are. To bad your mormon religion invented a new Jesus that has never been heard of since your founder introduced this unknown Mormon Jesus.

Maybe instead of trying to discredit the “Rock” that Jesus founded. Maybe try telling the Truth, that you are just a new found religion using Jesus as a name to tickle ears to your 18th century invented form of Chrisitianity. I know if I lived a life of crime, I would want to be a mormon. Private society, multiple wives, woman having no liberties of a human being should. etc.

Peace be with you, and yes I am praying for you