Apostasy?

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zipperc98

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Hi All,

I have done a search and for some reason am not really finding an answer that seems helpful to me.

I’m coming from the LDS faith and my husband has somewhat recently asked me concerning what the Catholic faith argues regarding the LDS belief of the Great Apostasy.

I asked the Deacon in charge of my RCIA class, and he didn’t really have much of an answer for me. I looked in the library tabs through this website about typical Mormon argument, etc. I guess I am hoping for a direct and relatively basic explanation.

I looked on the LDS website for what their definition was, and followed all the bible scriptures they listed for what they base this on, and I found that not a single one of those scriptures proved a thing (I read the Catholic version as well as King James…). The references seemed weak at best, and sometimes taken out of context of original discussion.

I’m sorry, I am sure this question has been rehashed over and over again…I am still hoping for an a-ha moment with this.

Anybody have a good and sound explanation that I can possibly share with my husband? I admit I haven’t looked into the CCC yet to find their references (if any)…so, if you know of something there, let me know.

Thanks, and God Bless!
 
The closest doctrine to Mormonism’s denial of the Trinity is Arianism.
Mormons also hold to some “out there” beliefs which resemble Gnosticism. One statement is that Paul switched from being a Pharisee, well educated in Jewish tradition and persecutor of the fledgling Church, to one of the greatest witnesses of the Church, and his conversion was faked. :eek: I guess all Jews who become Christians fake it. (Sarcastic reference to the Inquisition)

Others say that the decision-making process on determining the canon of Scripture was flawed as a result of this vague “apostasy”. Mormons believe in the “apostasy” in order to justify an open canon and therefore the BoM. They do not have any specific and logical statements as to the nature of an apostasy. Their reasoning is backward.

Mormonism began as a nutty pentecostalish sect, which taught that because of the apostasy the miracles that accompanied the early church ceased when the last apostles died. They now actively discourage speaking in tongues, etc. However, feelings divorced from intellect are still seen as coming from the HS. That is the reason why they are so persistent in their beliefs.
 
For what it is worth here is an excerpt from a letter I wrote to my lds parents trying to explain why I left the mormon faith. For me, the whole ‘great apostasy’ thing is very important. (long post I apologize!)

"The fundamental issue is actually quite simple. No need for complicated arguments or deep spiritual insights. Here it is in a nutshell: Since Jesus is God, since he is the good shepherd and faithful, he would never abandon his church. The church Christ established while on earth could not be destroyed and was not destroyed, since it was built on a rock. That church is the Catholic Church.

God’s covenant with the church is just as binding and eternal as his covenant with Israel, because the church is the fulfillment of Israel. The church could no more be taken from the earth than the Jews could be entirely exterminated as a people: as Paul said, the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. The Holy Spirit testifies of the true Christ, a Christ who loves the church as his bride, who is with us until the end of the world, who would never leave us orphans. If I don’t believe that then how can I have faith in Christ? What am I supposed to make of his promises? Is the good shepherd really the one who deserted his sheep right when they needed him most, when they were being tortured and killed because they would not deny him, when they were being assailed by false teachers and false doctrines? Did he build his church on rock or sand? If there was a great apostasy then Jesus must have built on a sandy foundation because when the storms of persecution and heresy came the church rapidly fell apart. Or perhaps Joseph Smith was just better than Jesus Christ at church building?

‘I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from him, but the Latter Day Saints never ran away from me yet’ – Joseph Smith, History of the Church

How can I risk my soul and knowingly follow someone who would say such a thing, who would dare compare himself with the great ‘I AM’? However, to be honest, for me the main issue is not with Joseph Smith or LDS church history. Now I do believe that God has given us clear signs (like the book of Abraham) that Joseph was a false prophet, if we are humble enough to accept correction and to acknowledge that we have been deceived, but it is really beside the point. If there was no great apostasy then there can be no restoration. I do not need to evaluate the claims of every person who comes along with a new message from God, whether it be Muhammad, Joseph Smith, or David Koresh. So I don’t need to be convinced that there are no problems with Joseph Smith and his revelations, I need to be convinced that the early Christian church collapsed into total apostasy.

I have read more or less everything written by LDS authors on the subject, talked with various religion professors at BYU, read many of the writings of the early Christians themselves, and still find no reason not to take Jesus’ promises to his church at face value (‘the gates of hell shall not prevail’, etc.). I have often heard the argument that the apostasy occurred because people used their free agency to reject the gospel. First of all there is also no evidence that all of the early Christians were unfaithful. To the contrary we know that there were many saints who were willing to undergo the most horrific tortures and deaths rather than deny their faith and their Lord. Who are we to question their faithfulness by saying that everyone turned against the true gospel after the death of the apostles? Would we have endured the trials that those saints endured? Would we, like them, have praised Jesus as the red hot iron was pressed against our flesh, as the lions ripped us apart limb from limb? One day the believers in a great apostasy will have to stand face to face with those early saints and martyrs and beg forgiveness for the slander against their names. They suffered far worse and for far longer than anything the early Mormons experienced. And let’s not forget that those early saints never gave in and changed their beliefs or practices in response to those persecutions. They conquered. They converted the Roman Empire to Christianity. In contrast it was the LDS church, in response to much more mild persecutions that caved in and abandoned the most critical practice of the restored church: polygamy (the original ‘celestial marriage’). I also believe that people misunderstand what free agency is and how it fits into God’s plan. The fact the we have free will does not mean that God is powerless, that God is not a God of miracles, or that God does not intervene (sometimes forcefully) in human history. It means that at the end of the day we, individually, are free to accept God’s gift of salvation or reject it. He will force none of us to Heaven. But God is never, at any time in history, without the means to accomplish his will. To deny that is to deny the foreknowledge and power of God. With regards to an alleged apostasy, individual church members could very well reject the true faith but God would still have the power to influence events and people to keep the church alive for the next generation. He who knows all things from the beginning can accomplish all his designs, not excepting sustaining his church until the end of the world. Even Mormons believe that God would remove a modern prophet who would try to lead the church astray and that it is not the work of God that is frustrated but the work of men."

continued…
 
“To be honest it is hard for me to see how someone could sincerely study the early Christian church and still believe in a great apostasy. There are no gaps in the writings of the early church. We know basically what the early church was like and its organization and beliefs were essentially Catholic (there are actually many Protestants who have converted to Catholicism or Orthodoxy after studying the early church, that’s how clear it is). I do, however, have a lot of sympathy for people who have built their entire lives around the LDS church and face the collapse of it all. I’ve read quite a few stories about people who have lost their wives, children, employment, etc. for leaving the LDS church. I’ve also read about people who don’t believe in the LDS church anymore but continue pretending to believe so that they don’t lose everything. But I cannot do that. Jesus clearly told us that we need to be willing to give up everything for him, no exceptions. If I have to choose between Jesus and Joseph (and I believe that is exactly the choice that I face), I choose Jesus.”
 
Wonderfully and powerfully stated, Palaiologos. Godspeed on your journey home!
 
‘I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from him, but the Latter Day Saints never ran away from me yet’ – Joseph Smith, History of the Church
This is astonishing. Well intentioned people can be in denial or deluded. Reading this it seems impossible that anyone could embrace Smith as a prophet. He exalts himself. He exalts Himself above Jesus, the person Christians see as God. I always thought Smith was simply off his rocker, another wild religious leader in a time where there were many in America who founded various sects. He was not the only polygamist leader of that time.

I don’t think any of them ever said anything like the above quote.
 
Thank you so much everybody for your responses! So many good explanations (and thanks to the first person who responded with a couple links…those were really awesome reads!

I wanted a fair amount of information and you have all delivered marvelously! Thank you!
 
This is astonishing. Well intentioned people can be in denial or deluded. Reading this it seems impossible that anyone could embrace Smith as a prophet. He exalts himself. He exalts Himself above Jesus, the person Christians see as God. I always thought Smith was simply off his rocker, another wild religious leader in a time where there were many in America who founded various sects. He was not the only polygamist leader of that time.

I don’t think any of them ever said anything like the above quote.
That quote of Joseph Smith reminds me of something Clement, the third bishop of Rome, wrote to the church at Corinth:

*“Let our praise be in God, and not of ourselves; for God hates those who commend themselves. Let testimony to our good deeds be borne by others, as it was in the case of our righteous forefathers. Boldness, and arrogance, and audacity belong to those that are accursed of God; but moderation, humility, and meekness to such as are blessed by Him.” *

Reading about the life of Smith, in Bushman’s Rough Stone Rolling, I had a sense that over the course of his life his pride, self importance, and delusions of granduer just kept growing until before his death he was taking other men’s wives as his own, running for president of the United States, appointed himself Lt. General (like George Washington) of a large militia, loving to parade around in uniform on horseback, and was trying to make his own little kingdom in Nauvoo, independent of the state and nation. He even had himself secretly crowned ‘king of Israel’ and sent ‘ambassadors’ to foreign nations.
 
‘I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from him, but the Latter Day Saints never ran away from me yet’ – Joseph Smith, History of the Church
continued…

Where can I find this quote (perhaps their website) (page number?) So I can share with husband? That’s sort of a revealing quote right there…

So many people I know seem like good people, and hard to have imagined been so led astray. JS seems to have been quite persuasive…I find it hard to understand how so many people are so easily fooled. Guess it just takes a strong personality or a convincing argument without weighing all evidences…
 
oseph Smith - “I have more to boast about than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet. You know my daily walk and conversation.” History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409 (1844)
irr.org/MIT/wdist/strange-teachings.html
 
Where can I find this quote (perhaps their website) (page number?) So I can share with husband? That’s sort of a revealing quote right there…

So many people I know seem like good people, and hard to have imagined been so led astray. JS seems to have been quite persuasive…I find it hard to understand how so many people are so easily fooled. Guess it just takes a strong personality or a convincing argument without weighing all evidences…
I believe it is found in volume 6, p408-409 of History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, edited by B.H. Roberts (a general authority). I am not sure where you can find an online copy. Somebody in your ward may have a set, or perhaps the ward/stake library.

LDS apologists will say he is just following the example of Paul in 2nd Corinthians chapter 11, where Paul ‘boasts’ in his labors and sufferings in comparison to those of various false apostles. But Paul never put himself above Christ, and also emphasizes his own weakness and dependence on God’s grace. And Paul never built a church around himself, the way Smith did (or had a harem, or led an army, or made himself a king, or started a bank, etc.)
 
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