"Apostolic" / Pentecostal Churches?

[childinthefaith]

I find myself with a question I’ve been unable to get answered as of yet:

What is the deal with “Jesus Only” I’ve heard them called, Apostolic/Holiness/Oneness Pentecostal type churches, and what on earth is the deal with them denying the Trinity?

I’ve a cousin who not only belongs to one of these, but is a preacher. However, it would do nothing but provoke him to attempt proselytizing me to ask him about his church, so I won’t.
According to my mother, who is also a Pentecostal but is part of the Assemblies of God type, not the type in question, they do not believe in the Trinity and preach “Jesus Only,” whatever that means.

Now, I know they rely immensely on the Thompson chain reference Bible which, in effect, makes any theological discussion with them a circular argument that goes nowhere. But, even in that Bible, Matthew 28 ends with Jesus saying to go forth baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and Holy Spirit…So how these “Bible believing” folks can possibly deny the Trinity is beyond my understanding.

Anyone here know about this and able to explain it to me? The reason I wish to know is so that if or when I encounter this cousin and his faith inevitably comes up in conversation, I am able to know where he is coming from so I can appropriately explain why I do not believe it, and contrast it to Catholic Teaching for him in an illustrative manner that facilitates him having to rethink his position a little.

Thanks for any help.

 

[tafan2]

I have a friend who is a member of the Assembly if God. He admitted he did not believe in the trinitarian formula as we say it. He describe his belief and I would say it was modalism, ie God ois one person who presents Himself in three different manifestations. It wasn’t well thought out, and I had the impression it was his personal beluef more than his denomination’s.

Perhaps that helps?

 

[childinthefaith]

That belief is close to what I have heard my cousin believes, but since they lack a unified teaching authority, it is probably subject to change from one church building to another.
However, the Assemblies of God does not teach what your friend describes. I’ve verified that. They believe in the Trinity quite closely to how Catholics do. Thing is, they, as may be said of the typical lay Catholic, usually are not able to explain their theological stance on the Trinity beyond, “I believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, three in one.”
However, this “Apostolic” cousin apparently believes only in Jesus as being God, yet also believes in the Holy Spirit. I’ve not discussed the details with him, as stated, and would want to thoroughly review an analysis of OUR Church Teaching on it before doing so.
I do know he argues his position against other family members who are of different Protestant types, to the point of starting very serious arguments about it in which folks get extremely offended and angry with him.

Actually my best guess is that it is more cultish than any sort of doctrinal church teaching for him. Without an Authority such as the Magisterium they’re free to interpret as they wish…

 

[TheLittleLady]

Assemblies of God official teaching is Trinitarian, so, your friend is a “Cafeteria A/Ger”

Apostolic Oneness Pentecostals are a whole 'nother religion. They are not Christian, as they deny the Trinity. I’d suggest reading how they explain their religion

Our Beliefs - upci.org

 

[TheLittleLady]

BTW, moved this over to the Non-Catholic Religions category.

 

[childinthefaith]

BTW, moved this over to the Non-Catholic Religions category.

k, thanks. Now I know where such things belong - appreciate it

 

[childinthefaith]

Assemblies of God official teaching is Trinitarian, so, your friend is a “Cafeteria A/Ger”

Apostolic Oneness Pentecostals are a whole 'nother religion. They are not Christian, as they deny the Trinity. I’d suggest reading how they explain their religion

UPCI

Our Beliefs | United Pentecostal Church International | UPCI​

The UPCI believes the Bible is the infallible Word of God, and the authority for salvation and Christian living. We obey the gospel by repentance, water baptism in Jesus’ name, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

k, I did look at the UPCI site. That is not what my cousin believes or preaches best I know. I also do not have any clue when I might have the chance to engage him in conversation as we live in different parts of the country now and he rarely comes by our area to visit my mother, his aunt.

At least i now know about the UPCI thing and that he doesn’t fit that set of parameters.
Thank you

 

[TheLittleLady]

Cafeteria UPCI-er

 

[childinthefaith]

Cafeteria UPCI-er

@TheLittleLady Who are you saying is a “Cafeteria UPCI-er”?? Sorry, am simply unclear and not following.

 

[gohjedrek]

Was from a pentecostal church similar to the assembly of god in the past, there was a huge emphasis on the holy spirit and jesus. Everyone was strongly encouraged to speak in tongues and those who can’t, still tried to do so anyway. Their belief is centred on the gifts of the holy spirit and a deep and personal relationship with Jesus. Interestingly, they also focus a lot on the emotion rather than on intellect of the scriptures (the latter being the common amongst other protestants). God (Jesus) spoke to me in a dream, I prophesy that some of you … These are the typical preachings I receive in the pentecostal church. I came out of the church, feeling a weird mix of momentary spiritual high on sunday, poor biblical knowledge and huge doubt towards the gift of tongues for every believer. So, I would say they are not as bible believing as most of the protestant groups, especially compared to presbyterians and baptists.

As to cult, it works both ways. Had a sermon where there was clear catholic bashing, they brought in a convert to testify against catholicism for their emphasis on Mary over Jesus. On the other hand, heard from an acquitance who attends a neighbouring, non-denominational, non-charismatic and bible believing church, members believe that pentecostal, charismatic churches are influenced by the demon, with regard to speaking in tongues.

My presumption is that they do not see the trinity as a huge thing, I was taught the solid,liquid and gas idea of the trinity which could be close to what tafan is getting at about modalism. The trinity wasn’t an important thing at all, it was the personal attachment you have with Jesus that triumph over physical structures. As far as I know, a number still come in to feel the spiritual high on sundays but more have left in the past couple of years because it is unsustainable.They do justify it as another season of their life where they just need to focus on work more.

 

[ZMystiCat]

So, I would say they are not as bible believing as most of the protestant groups, especially compared to presbyterians and baptists.

Yeah, this has been my experience as well. I don’t remember a whole lot from my family’s AoG days, but I remember being shocked when I started attending a Reformed EFCA church and was getting considerable Biblical analysis each Sunday. The worst, though, was the Vineyard church my parents went to while I was in college. The amount of time any of the pastors spent with the Bible ranged from not at all to 3 - 4 verses thrown in at random times in the sermon. Normally, these were taken woefully out of context too, and the one time someone decided to do a “deep delve” into a passage, he spent much of the time cracking jokes about the story. But if you’re into CCM (I’m not), they definitely put on a concert each service.

With that said, I have been to a couple AoG churches (one actually in India) that felt closer to a traditional Baptist or Presbyterian church.

My presumption is that they do not see the trinity as a huge thing, I was taught the solid,liquid and gas idea of the trinity which could be close to what tafan is getting at about modalism.

Yeah, despite the Holy Spirit being a big deal, the doctrine of the Trinity is almost an afterthought. Even my own explanation of the Trinity left people wondering if I was a modalist or not, even without the solid/liquid/gas analogy. I wasn’t, but it wouldn’t surprise me if people with a similar upbringing often are. Even then, I’m not sure if my non-modalist understanding came from anything said in Pentecostal churches or solely from the Fundamentalist Baptist school curriculum we used for homeschooling.

 

[TheLittleLady]

Not only Catholic have adherents who deviate from the teaching, seems your friend picks And chooses what apostolic oneness doctrines he likes

 

[ltwin]

What is the deal with “Jesus Only” I’ve heard them called, Apostolic/Holiness/Oneness Pentecostal type churches, and what on earth is the deal with them denying the Trinity?

They are Modalists (aka the heresy of Sabellianism that was condemned by the early church). They believe that when Scripture speaks of the “Father” and the “Holy Spirit” that those are just different “modes” or titles for the one true God who is Jesus Christ.

they do not believe in the Trinity and preach “Jesus Only,” whatever that means.

They only baptize in the name of Jesus, therefore they are called “Jesus Only” by observers.

But, even in that Bible, Matthew 28 ends with Jesus saying to go forth baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and Holy Spirit…So how these “Bible believing” folks can possibly deny the Trinity is beyond my understanding.

The argument is that in the early church (aka in Acts of the Apostles) the Trinitarian formula is never referred to, but the phrase “baptized in the name of Jesus” or similar is used. So, they say, the early church baptized in Jesus’ name only and that is the authentic pattern to follow.

 

[gohjedrek]

The worst, though, was the Vineyard church my parents went to while I was in college. The amount of time any of the pastors spent with the Bible ranged from not at all to 3 - 4 verses thrown in at random times in the sermon. Normally, these were taken woefully out of context too, and the one time someone decided to do a “deep delve” into a passage, he spent much of the time cracking jokes about the story. But if you’re into CCM (I’m not), they definitely put on a concert each service.

With that said, I have been to a couple AoG churches (one actually in India) that felt closer to a traditional Baptist or Presbyterian church.

Yes, this was a similar situation as mine. Preacher spends a lot of time on personal testimony of their own life, more than reference to the scripture and teaching. Experience triumphs scripture, the sermon was generally about applying the scripture to life, not about the understanding of it, so they use different parts of the bible to come up with a message. Bible study was by far the worse amongst all the denominations I attended (anglican,methodist, baptist, university wide), there was a huge emphasis on the “me” aspect, people ask random questions unrelated to the topic of discussion, was invited by a friend for a bible study through romans 6 on baptism and there was a huge conflict amongst some members because of their different view on temptation. It is a never-ending cycle of proofing each other right/wrong within the group level, mind you they do not even clarify the question with the pastor, let alone the person that was going through the bible study. If they are proven wrong, they prefer to go do self-research. For the most part, they did place more effort into evangelism and serving, but still held on to the once saved always saved belief.

I had head knowledge of the trinity, but it was adiaphora. I only became centred on the trinity when my friend invited me to visit the catholic church and have since prayed in the name of the father, son and holy spirit since then.

 

[ltwin]

For the most part, they did place more effort into evangelism and serving, but still held on to the once saved always saved belief.

What denomination is this? Pentecostals do NOT believe in Once Saved, Always Saved. That is a Baptist belief.

I had head knowledge of the trinity, but it was adiaphora.

Among Pentecostals? There aren’t that many options. Either you believe in Oneness or you believe in the Trinity. This isn’t generally considered a matter of indifference, and to this day Oneness and Trinitarian Pentecostals do not get along very well. Trinitarian Pentecostals interact more with other evangelicals than we do with our Oneness counterparts.

 

[ltwin]

Wow I have never had that type of issue with the vineyard church or AOG. Or Pentecostal . or WOF

I can believe it. I’ve yet to meet a Pentecostal preacher whose primary style is simply expository preaching, which is way more common among Calvinist preachers. Pentecostal hermenuetics is different. Our preachers tend to look for types and symbolism within a passage and then seek to apply that to the needs of the congregation in a dynamic way. That is fine and valid, but some preachers can go off the rails with their interpretations. For example, I’ve sat in sermons where the preacher’s whole message was built around dubious numerology inspired by one obscure Old Testament passage.

We tend to favor “preaching” over “teaching.” That’s fine, both are important, but sometimes I wish we had more straight up teaching.

 

[gohjedrek]

What denomination is this?

Anglican pentecostal, I can confirm they believe in once saved, always saved. One of the cell group leaders brought me into deep questioning when I struggled to answer his question whether you go to heaven or hell if you die the next day.

Either you believe in Oneness or you believe in the Trinity. This isn’t generally considered a matter of indifference, and to this day Oneness and Trinitarian Pentecostals do not get along very well.

They are trinitarian, but I understood the trinity to be mix of solid, liquid and gas concept for father,son and the holy spirit based on what the church teaches. There was only one time it was specifically mentioned and they don’t really go in-depth about the trinity belief.

 

[ltwin]

Anglican pentecostal

You mean charismatics within the Anglican church? That isn’t the same as classical Pentecostalism.

One of the cell group leaders brought me into deep questioning when I struggled to answer his question whether you go to heaven or hell if you die the next day.

Sorry, I don’t meant to be obtuse, but how is that Once Saved Always Saved? To me, that is asking about assurance of faith (also sometimes called assurance of salvation). Assurance is different from OSAS. As a classical Pentecostal, I was taught that I could forfeit salvation through unbelief and disobedience, but I was also taught the possibility of knowing that I was born again (having an assurance that if I die tonight I will be “saved.”).

This assurance comes from knowing that we have placed our faith in Christ, that our sins are forgiven and having the inner witness of the Spirit that we are a child of God. It’s not OSAS, which is built on a false security of “mental assent”. Assurance is also not something you gain once and then can never lose. It’s positional. We have assurance because we are in Christ. If we cease to follow Christ, we have no longer any basis for our hope.

If I struggled to answer the question “would I go to heaven or hell if I die tomorrow”, my Pentecostal church would tell me to go to the altar, pray and seek God until you are able to answer with confidence that I believe in Christ, I trust Christ and he has forgiven me of my sins. Now I can walk in the confidence that I have been justified by faith, been regenerated and made spiritually alive, and am now being sanctified progressively by the Holy Spirit so that I may walk in holiness and power for Christian witness.

If I continue to live a life of faith in Christ and repentance from sin, I can be assured that when I die I will be with Christ. I don’t have to worry about going to heaven or hell when I die because I know if I place my trust in Christ, he will keep his word. That is assurance.

 

[gohjedrek]

It’s not really anglican in operation, it’s bordering the lines of pentecostalism with a mega church foundation. Yeah, but it is an anglican church by name.

My understanding of OSAS and assurance might not be too good, since I have always held on to the synergistic view as a protestant. I managed to get some understanding that assurance is different from OSAS, only after talking to presbyterians on this topic today. So, the cell group leader is possibly implying assurance, but that was definitely something I didn’t believe in the past.

 

[ltwin]

It’s not really anglican in operation, it’s bordering the lines of pentecostalism with a mega church foundation. Yeah, but it is an anglican church by name.

OK. Understood.

My understanding of OSAS and assurance might not be too good, since I have always held on to the synergistic view as a protestant. I managed to get some understanding that assurance is different from OSAS, only after talking to presbyterians on this topic today. So, the cell group leader is possibly implying assurance, but that was definitely something I didn’t believe in the past.

Well, Pentecostals are synergistic too. In any case, I find that many Catholic posters sometimes miss out on the difference between OSAS and simple evangelical assurance doctrine.