G
Greg_McPherran
Guest
Do we have the same powers as the apostles to heal, etc.?
Greg
Greg
- Status
W
whowantsumadebo
Guest
I hope so. I think some people do. For the Apostles Jesus was right there. They knew him like anyone else. There was no question to them at all. They had the power of faith surging throught their body. Remember the words of Our Lord when he said that Faith could move mountains.
But I don’t think I do. Not yet.
But I don’t think I do. Not yet.
G
Greg_McPherran
Guest
I would think so also. It seems we are not encouraged to think that we have these powers. For example, I don’t recall any homilies encouraging us in this regard (at least not directly). Is there any reason for this?
Greg
Greg
C
CARose
Guest
I think these “apostolic powers” you are referring to are defined as Charisms by the Catholic Church and we each are given specific Charisms as gifts of the Holy Spirit which are given to us at baptism. Each person has specific gifts, intended for the building up of the Church, rather than for the benefit of the recipient. A Charism cannot be used for evil purposes.
In this way Charisms differ from Talents, which can be used for either good or bad purposes. When we discern our charisms and work to put them to use for the good of our fellow man, we find a great joy in doing that task which was divinely intended for us.
Not everyone receives all the gifts and there is a great range of gifts from which to select. Most people only receive a small number of gifts, although I suspect that as one grows in Holiness, God is quite capable of bestowing additional gifts, commensurate with his demonstrated willingness to put the gifts to good use (this would be consistant with scripture - think back to Sunday’s reading).
Just as the Church is the body of Christ, we as members of the Church represent the various aspects of His body. Hence, what we bring to the Church are differing gifts which come together to provide for the needs of the entire church. This is why I so love the Catholic Church.
Our spirituality is so broad based and yet we have a clearly defined canon, the foundation of our beliefs, that which we hold in common. But beyond that commonality, we have very different ways of attaining to holiness and sharing the beauty of the fullness of our appreciation for Christ and for one another.
CARose
In this way Charisms differ from Talents, which can be used for either good or bad purposes. When we discern our charisms and work to put them to use for the good of our fellow man, we find a great joy in doing that task which was divinely intended for us.
Not everyone receives all the gifts and there is a great range of gifts from which to select. Most people only receive a small number of gifts, although I suspect that as one grows in Holiness, God is quite capable of bestowing additional gifts, commensurate with his demonstrated willingness to put the gifts to good use (this would be consistant with scripture - think back to Sunday’s reading).
Just as the Church is the body of Christ, we as members of the Church represent the various aspects of His body. Hence, what we bring to the Church are differing gifts which come together to provide for the needs of the entire church. This is why I so love the Catholic Church.
Our spirituality is so broad based and yet we have a clearly defined canon, the foundation of our beliefs, that which we hold in common. But beyond that commonality, we have very different ways of attaining to holiness and sharing the beauty of the fullness of our appreciation for Christ and for one another.
CARose
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello Greg,
Call it Apostolic powers or the power of prayer, it is real and powerful.
My twenty year old sister went to the hospital. We prayed night and day with her. Prayer, hands on healing, last rites, what ever we could think of from our knowledge of the bible. The doctors threw the electric defibulator at her often. I stayed with my sister night and day praying. I did go home a few times over the weeks to sleep. Three times the hospital called to tell me my sister was dying and that I would not make it in in time to see her before she died. I went anyway praying all the way. When her heart stopped, and the defibulator failed to establish a bleep, her doctor gave compressions for fifty minuets. I said you mean fifteen minuets. No fifty minuets he said. They were looking at the clock to call her hour of death but the doctor decided to go one more sequence. Then the bleep came.
After about a month the doctors told us that she will live but she may never regain conciousness. They told us her lungs were damaged so badly that she will no doubt always need oxegen. They told us her liver was probubly severely damaged for life. And of course the great possibility of brain damage. These allong with a long list of other problems.
After she regained conciousness her nurse looked at me and said, "Steve, your sister is what we here at Harborview call ‘a real save’. Harborview Medical Center is the speciallty trama center in Seattle caring for Washington, Alaska, Oregon and Idaho severe trauma patients. “A real save” to them is no small accomplishment. Now fifteen years later my sister is perfectly healthy and happy. I would never discount the medical staff at Harborview, but as for me and the power of prayer and healling, I BELEIVE!
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
J
jeffreedy789
Guest
hey greg - couple ideas regarding your question.
one - the church teaches that supernatural healing (as opposed to ‘natural’ healing, which God also does, only more slowly) is for the purpose of promoting and strengthening faith. if you think about it, a person who is sick, and then is healed, will still get sick again, and will eventually die. so the healing itself is only temporary anyway. lazarus, even though Jesus brought him back to LIFE, still eventually died again. d’oh! so the miracle was more for the faith of those (like me and you) who hear about or see the miracle than it is for the sake fo the healing itself.
so - it’s not always best for the sake of people’s faith for healing to take place, esp today, in an increasingly cynical and ddubious world. such healings would be ridiculed and explained away, rather than produce faith in God. they do still take place, of course. but not ‘every day’ like you’d think, as we do still have the gifts that the apostles were given.
two - as far as homilies go - they’re geared toward the avg joe catholic. they’re about geting through your day, and facing life as an ordinary catholic person. the ‘deeper things of the faith’ are often reserved for books, retreats, or lectures. just because you don’t hear an homily on something doesn’t mean the church doesn’t teach it.
God bless.
one - the church teaches that supernatural healing (as opposed to ‘natural’ healing, which God also does, only more slowly) is for the purpose of promoting and strengthening faith. if you think about it, a person who is sick, and then is healed, will still get sick again, and will eventually die. so the healing itself is only temporary anyway. lazarus, even though Jesus brought him back to LIFE, still eventually died again. d’oh! so the miracle was more for the faith of those (like me and you) who hear about or see the miracle than it is for the sake fo the healing itself.
so - it’s not always best for the sake of people’s faith for healing to take place, esp today, in an increasingly cynical and ddubious world. such healings would be ridiculed and explained away, rather than produce faith in God. they do still take place, of course. but not ‘every day’ like you’d think, as we do still have the gifts that the apostles were given.
two - as far as homilies go - they’re geared toward the avg joe catholic. they’re about geting through your day, and facing life as an ordinary catholic person. the ‘deeper things of the faith’ are often reserved for books, retreats, or lectures. just because you don’t hear an homily on something doesn’t mean the church doesn’t teach it.
God bless.
P
puzzleannie
Guest
the powers given specifically to the 12 Apostles by Jesus Christ to forgive sins, confect the Eucharist, to teach and preach and serve in the sacramental priesthood, are reserved to the bishops, who are the successors of the apostles, and to those they ordain for this service. The charisms of the Holy Spirit described throughout the epistles are given to the whole Church, to serve and build up the Church, but are exercised only under guidance of the Church, that is of the bishops. they are ecclesial, not personal. The gifts that come to all of us by virtue of our baptism and confirmation (the two conjoined sacraments) are for our personal growth in grace and relationship with God and for service to His people.
G
Greg_McPherran
Guest
Good (name removed by moderator)ut from all. I am more specifically referring to the power that the apostles showed in character and act. They healed many on the spot and spoke in public. I do not see even bishops doing that today, let alone the laity.
The explanation about cynicism does make some sense.
Greg
The explanation about cynicism does make some sense.
Greg
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello Greg,
In LUKE 10 Jesus appoints 72 Disciples to go out and preach the gospel. They have tremendous Spiritual powers. The 72 needed no sandals, purses or swords. They could walk on snakes and scorpions. Demonds ran when they proclaimed Jesus name. Please take a look at LUKE 10.
Afterwards in LUKE 22:35 Jesus says, “When I sent you on mission without purse or traveling bag or sandals, were you in need of anything?” “Not a thing,” they replied. He said to them: “Now, however the man who has a purse must carry it; the same with the traveling bag. And the man without a sword must sell his coat and buy one.”
It seems that the mission of the seventy two was a Spiritually supercharged event like putting booster rockets on the Church to get Her off the ground. Later, at the Last Supper, Jesus seems to tone the Spirit down a bit. The Apostles still had more Spiritual power than modern day Successors. Possibly further toning down of the Spirit since faith is firmly rooted. There were few harvestors in the Church’s begining. Look around you now on this forum alone. There are many harvestors.
**NAB LUKE 10:2 **
“The harvest is rich but the workers are few; therfore ask the harvest-master to send workers to his harvest. Be on your way, and remember: I am sending you as lambs in the midst of wolves.”
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
G
Greg_McPherran
Guest
Hello Steve,
Steven Merten:
Steven Merten:
Thank You,
Greg
Steven Merten:
Can you elaborate how having less Spiritual power today is good.
Steven Merten:
Why do harvesters not need as much Spiritual power?
Thank You,
Greg
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello Greg,
Greg_McPherran:
Thomas said in response, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him: “You became a believer because you saw me. Blest are they who have not seen and have believed.”
Greg_McPherran:
“Blest are the eyes that see what you see. I tell you, many prophets and kings wished to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.”
Hello Greg,
When it was fashionable to go to Medugorji, a freind asked me to go. I told my friend, "If I went to Medugorji and saw Mary with my own eyes, saw cripples healed, saw mountains move, saw water part, how would this help me? I already believe with all my heart that Jesus is Lord, Saviour and King. I already strive to love and obey Jesus with all my strength.
Can you see that Jesus teaches a persons faith is greater for those who need no confirmation of miracles to help them to believe. “Blest are they who have not seen and have believed”
The opposite is true also. If one sees miracles and then does not believe, they are worse off. God had just preformed miracle after miracle before the eyes of the Israelites in their exodus from Egypt. Then the Israelites bent down to worship a golden calf. God was about to destroy them all had it not been for Moses intervention as peacemaker (Exodus 32). Judas is another example.
**NAB MAT 26:24 **
The Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born."
Jesus tells us that the seventy two diciples saw greater things than the prophets of old. The prophets of old and the Successors of today do the work our Lord has put before them usually with less visual confirmation of miracles than the seventy two saw. A big part of faith is doing what Jesus tells us to do with out having to have God show His power to get us to do it.
A man once was bemoaning that he should live in our age when it seems Satan is at his hieght of power and there is so much evil in the world. I looked at him and said, “If this truly is mankind’s most evil era in human history, then what an OPPORTUNITY to prove our steadfast faithfulness to God!”
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
P.S. And by the way, Apostolic Successors today bear the “Keys to the Kingdom” the power to “hold sins loost” and “hold sins bound”. At the time of the seventy two in LUKE 10, Jesus had not yet bestowed this Spiritual gift to the Apostles. Though Apostolic Successors of today may not preform as many visual miracles, they bear more “Spiritual Power” (the Keys to the Kingdom) than the seventy two did at the time of the LUKE 10 incident. By the time of the “Acts of the Apostles” they did bear both miraculous events and the Keys. I am just trying to make it clear that preforming miracles should not be considered “more Spiritual Power” than possession of the “Keys to the Kingdom” and other Spiritual powers that modern Apostolic Successors posess.
NAB JOHN 21:28
Thomas said in response, “My Lord and my God!” Jesus said to him: “You became a believer because you saw me. Blest are they who have not seen and have believed.”
NAB LUKE 10:23 (Jesus says of the 72)
“Blest are the eyes that see what you see. I tell you, many prophets and kings wished to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it.”
Hello Greg,
When it was fashionable to go to Medugorji, a freind asked me to go. I told my friend, "If I went to Medugorji and saw Mary with my own eyes, saw cripples healed, saw mountains move, saw water part, how would this help me? I already believe with all my heart that Jesus is Lord, Saviour and King. I already strive to love and obey Jesus with all my strength.
Can you see that Jesus teaches a persons faith is greater for those who need no confirmation of miracles to help them to believe. “Blest are they who have not seen and have believed”
The opposite is true also. If one sees miracles and then does not believe, they are worse off. God had just preformed miracle after miracle before the eyes of the Israelites in their exodus from Egypt. Then the Israelites bent down to worship a golden calf. God was about to destroy them all had it not been for Moses intervention as peacemaker (Exodus 32). Judas is another example.
**NAB MAT 26:24 **
The Son of Man indeed goes, as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed. It would be better for that man if he had never been born."
Jesus tells us that the seventy two diciples saw greater things than the prophets of old. The prophets of old and the Successors of today do the work our Lord has put before them usually with less visual confirmation of miracles than the seventy two saw. A big part of faith is doing what Jesus tells us to do with out having to have God show His power to get us to do it.
A man once was bemoaning that he should live in our age when it seems Satan is at his hieght of power and there is so much evil in the world. I looked at him and said, “If this truly is mankind’s most evil era in human history, then what an OPPORTUNITY to prove our steadfast faithfulness to God!”
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
P.S. And by the way, Apostolic Successors today bear the “Keys to the Kingdom” the power to “hold sins loost” and “hold sins bound”. At the time of the seventy two in LUKE 10, Jesus had not yet bestowed this Spiritual gift to the Apostles. Though Apostolic Successors of today may not preform as many visual miracles, they bear more “Spiritual Power” (the Keys to the Kingdom) than the seventy two did at the time of the LUKE 10 incident. By the time of the “Acts of the Apostles” they did bear both miraculous events and the Keys. I am just trying to make it clear that preforming miracles should not be considered “more Spiritual Power” than possession of the “Keys to the Kingdom” and other Spiritual powers that modern Apostolic Successors posess.
G
Greg_McPherran
Guest
Hello Steve,
You make some interesting points. However, I am not only referring to healing (for example) as a sign but to help those who need to be healed.
Greg
You make some interesting points. However, I am not only referring to healing (for example) as a sign but to help those who need to be healed.
Greg
S
Steven_Merten
Guest
Hello Greg,
It would have been nice if Jesus would have left us with a healing tree that would have healed all people for all time, but He did’nt. It would have been nice if Jesus would have left us with baskets of fish and bread which would have fed all the starving for all time, but He did’nt. It would have been nice if Jesus would have left us with world peace for all time, but He did’nt.
Jesus did leave us with a path to eternal life and He solidified His teaching with miracles beyond comprehention to let us know that He truly is the Son of God. In the same way Jesus seems to solidify His chosen Apostles as the true leaders of His Church through the miracles that they also preformed before the eyes of many.
Many people of today seem to think that God is too “loving and kind” to let anyone go to hell. Possibly the fact that even children die of horrible deseases, without healing from God (Jesus, The Father and The Holy Spirit), is a reality check from God to mankind. Desease is a penalty of mankind’s original sin. Possibly God does not want us to ever decieve ourselves into thinking that He is too “loving and kind” (as man thinks of these terms) to allow death, eternal death, as a penalty for those who do not repent.
In Christ’s healings, repentance was often a key desired outcome. Repentance for healing the soul is always a priority. The miracle of repentance to service to God, to heal one’s soul, is always within man’s reach.
Peace in Christ,
Steven Merten
www.ILOVEYOUGOD.com
- Status