Apostolic Succession and schismatic churches

[Muzhik]

Greetings! I’ve been researching different schisms in Church history. Apparently, there has never been an ecumenical council that did not result in a schism. After the First Vatican Council and the definition of the doctrine of Papal Infallibility, a group of German bishops (including number of German-based American priests) and formed what was called the Old Catholic Church (OCC). They claimed to hold true to Catholic teachings up to Vatican 1. They also claimed Apostolic Succession.

This OCC has itself splintered into a number of churches calling themselves Catholic, claiming to hold true to traditional Catholic teachings, while ordaining women and marrying gays. Each of these churches claim valid sacraments and Apostolic Succession, some of them producing detailed histories and graphics showing from where they make this claim.

My question is, at what point does a schismatic group, even if led by a former cardinal, lose its claim to Apostolic Succession?

(I fear this question may become important depending on the behavior of a group of German bishops during and after the upcoming Synod on the Family.)

 

[7_Sorrows]

I understand your concern in the last paragraph because I am wondering what might happen as well.

 

[InThePew]

My question is, at what point does a schismatic group, even if led by a former cardinal, lose its claim to Apostolic Succession?

(I fear this question may become important depending on the behavior of a group of German bishops during and after the upcoming Synod on the Family.)

In very basic terms, Apostolic succession is derived from a validly ordained bishop (regardless of whether or not he is also a cardinal). So in the case of SSPX, their orders are valid because Abp Lefebvre was himself validly ordained and he in turn validly ordained his successors. However, where the understanding of the priesthood changes (as in the case of the Anglican / Episcopal Church) this can affect the validity of the schismatic groups orders.

 

[Memorial_Drive]

So no Anglicans today have apostolic succession because their understanding of the priesthood changed too much?
When did their understanding change enough that this happened (early on or recently with ordination of women)?

 

[7_Sorrows]

So no Anglicans today have apostolic succession because their understanding of the priesthood changed too much?
When did their understanding change enough that this happened (early on or recently with ordination of women)?

I have read several threads on this topic. it is complicated. There is a poster named GKC who is somewhat of an expert on this regarding the anglican communion and the episcopal church.

 

[Muzhik]

Let’s leave aside the Anglican Communion for the moment and focus on these other groups that are in schism, such as the Old Catholics and their offshoots (American Catholic Church, Catholic Church in America, etc.) At what point did they loose their share in Apostolic Succession?

 

[InThePew]

So no Anglicans today have apostolic succession because their understanding of the priesthood changed too much?
When did their understanding change enough that this happened (early on or recently with ordination of women)?

The invalidity of Anglican orders goes back to 1896 and the Bull of Pope Leo XIII Apostolicae Curae which, after studying the history of Anglican orders, found that changes made during the reign of Edward VI (who succeeded Henry VIII) were substantially different enough to affect the validity of Anglican orders. Basically, the problem lies is the absence of any recognition in their ordination rite of the sacrifice of the mass or the sacrificial nature of the priesthood. So, in other words, the horse had bolted long before any notion of female ordinations came along.

Let’s leave aside the Anglican Communion for the moment and focus on these other groups that are in schism, such as the Old Catholics and their offshoots (American Catholic Church, Catholic Church in America, etc.) At what point did they loose their share in Apostolic Succession?

Whether any group does in fact enjoy a share in apostolic succession is question specific to that particular group - what is true for one may not be true for others, let alone all. Valid apostolic succession requires a validly ordained bishop - which admittedly many of these groups can and do trace their lineage back to. However, it also requires that all others in the line of succession since were validly ordained priests (and subsequently bishops) by one who was themselves validly ordained. A break at any point in the line nullifies all that comes afterwards.

Also required for validity is an intention which conforms with the intention of the Church (and therein, Christ) - basically, the group needs to have the same understanding or priesthood that the Church does (which is where the Anglican Communion runs into difficulty). Some of these groups ordain women which certainly puts them on shaky ground in terms of validity and, if they were to accept women bishops would pretty much end any share they may have in apostolic succession. Ultimately, given that there’s only about 115,000 total OCC attendees adherents worldwide there’s probably no great hurry on the part of Rome to carry out an exhaustive investigation into the accuracy of any particular group’s claim!