Appreciate help with dilemma

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OK, here’s the trouble I’m having. I started RCIA last year, and about this time last year decided I couldn’t go through with coming into the church because of the following:
21But now apart from the Law (AD)the righteousness of God has been manifested, being (AE)witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

22even the (AF)righteousness of God through (AG)faith (AH)in Jesus Christ for (AI)all those who believe; for (AJ)there is no distinction;
23for all (AK)have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift (AL)by His grace through (AM)the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; (NAS) Romans 3:21-24.
The 23rd verse is where I get hung up. It says clearly that all have sinned. Not everyone but Mary. Since I left RCIA and stopped attending Mass and went back to attending protestant church I have been very unsettled and have missed Mass SO MUCH. I actually went to Mass today and was so happy to be there. I’ve since moved from the town I was in and attending RCIA, but even though it was a new location it was so awesome to be in a Mass again. I walked in and immediately it felt so great to be there. The service was a little different from the previous church because they sing some songs in Latin, but it was still great.
I overcame so much to just start RCIA last year, I didn’t take it lightly. It was very difficult for me to walk away because I love so much about the church. I just can’t seem to get past my issues with Mary. Not her actually, just the light she’s seen in with the church.
If anyone has any (name removed by moderator)ut that might help it would be great.
I’d be ever so gr8full…😉
 
gr8full said:
OK, here’s the trouble I’m having. I started RCIA last year, and about this time last year decided I couldn’t go through with coming into the church because of the following:
21But now apart from the Law (AD)the righteousness of God has been manifested, being (AE)witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

22even the (AF)righteousness of God through (AG)faith (AH)in Jesus Christ for (AI)all those who believe; for (AJ)there is no distinction;
23for all (AK)have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift (AL)by His grace through (AM)the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; (NAS) Romans 3:21-24.
The 23rd verse is where I get hung up. It says clearly that all have sinned. Not everyone but Mary. Since I left RCIA and stopped attending Mass and went back to attending protestant church I have been very unsettled and have missed Mass SO MUCH. I actually went to Mass today and was so happy to be there. I’ve since moved from the town I was in and attending RCIA, but even though it was a new location it was so awesome to be in a Mass again. I walked in and immediately it felt so great to be there. The service was a little different from the previous church because they sing some songs in Latin, but it was still great.
I overcame so much to just start RCIA last year, I didn’t take it lightly. It was very difficult for me to walk away because I love so much about the church. I just can’t seem to get past my issues with Mary. Not her actually, just the light she’s seen in with the church.
If anyone has any (name removed by moderator)ut that might help it would be great.
I’d be ever so gr8full…😉
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😉 I hope you find these two articles helpful and that you will proceed into the Church:

catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0709btb.asp

catholic.com/thisrock/1991/9112fea1.asp
 
gr8full said:
The 23rd verse is where I get hung up. It says clearly that all have sinned. Not everyone but Mary.
Click to expand...
If all have sinned then a newborn baby has sinned. What sin has a newborn baby committed?
 
It also doesnt say all have sinned except Jesus either. What is your viewpoints on this?

Jesus and Mary together as a redemtion team will crush the serpents head Genesis 3:15, they are a team, acting together. Mary helped start Jesus’ ministry at the Wedding at Cana.
 
Here as in so many other places it’s important to take the verse in context. Just a few sentences earlier Paul has written “There is no one just, not one, there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God. All have gone astray; all alike are worthless; there is not one who does good, (there is not) even one.”

And yet we know from Scripture and from life that there are many who seek God and many who do good, What on earth is Paul talking about? He’s emphasizing that there is no difference between Jews and Gentiles in their need for salvation through Jesus, while at the same time responding to the accusation that Christians are to be condemned for rejecting the Law given by God - he is saying that Christianity fulfills the Law.

And, don’t forget that Catholics believe that Mary was also saved by grace because of her faith.
 
gr8full said:
The 23rd verse is where I get hung up. It says clearly that all have sinned. Not everyone but Mary. Since I left RCIA and stopped attending Mass and went back to attending protestant church I have been very unsettled and have missed Mass SO MUCH. I actually went to Mass today and was so happy to be there. I’ve since moved from the town I was in and attending RCIA, but even though it was a new location it was so awesome to be in a Mass again. I walked in and immediately it felt so great to be there. The service was a little different from the previous church because they sing some songs in Latin, but it was still great.
I overcame so much to just start RCIA last year, I didn’t take it lightly. It was very difficult for me to walk away because I love so much about the church. I just can’t seem to get past my issues with Mary. Not her actually, just the light she’s seen in with the church.
If anyone has any (name removed by moderator)ut that might help it would be great.
I’d be ever so gr8full…😉
Click to expand...
I think this should help:

For All Have Sinned
A Refutation of the Attack on the Immaculate Conception of Mary from Romans 3:23
(Based on a talk by Karlo Broussard on Catholic Answers Live on 2/11/08)

Many people reject the Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception and argue that Mary was not born sinless and that she did not remain sinless all of her life. In support of their position, they often quote a passage from Paul’s Letter to the Romans which declares, **“**for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Romans 3:23)

However, does this passage really prove that Mary could not have been without sin? And is this really what Paul intended to teach in this passage? Let’s take a closer look.

The primary question to be asked concerning Romans 3:23 is this: When the Bible uses the word “all”, does it necessarily exclude exceptions? The answer is “no” as several scripture passages suggest.

For example, Matthew 3:5 tells us, “People went out to him from Jerusalem and all Judea and the whole region of the Jordan.” Does this mean that there were no places from which people did not go out to see Jesus? This is not likely. The author attempted to convey an idea that a large number of people went out to see Jesus by using hyperbole.

Similarly, 1 Corinthians 15:22 says, “For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.” Does this mean that every single person ever born will die? Well, the Bible tells us that Enoch and Elijah were taken up into heaven without dying, so we know that obviously not all die because these two exceptions exist. From this, we know that the Bible does not necessarily exclude exceptions when it uses the word, “all”.

Returning to Romans 3:23, we should ask further whether Paul intended to exclude exceptions when he used the word, “all”, or is he using it in a non-absolute way? To understand the context of Paul’s thought, we should look at Romans 3:10-12 wherein he quotes Psalm 14:2-3: **“**As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away; they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

Does Paul really believe that there no righteous people? Of course not! The Bible tells us that Joseph was a just man (Mt 1:19), John the Baptist’s parents, Zechariah and Elizabeth, were declared righteous (Luke 1:19), and Psalm 14 goes on to speak of “the company of the righteous” in verse 5 while Psalm 15 references those who walk blamelessly and do what is right. So, if Paul is using the word “all” to mean “absolutely no exceptions”, then he is using the word very differently from the verses he quoted from Psalm 14 and from other passages of scripture.

Finally, it is also reasonable for us to assume that Paul would agree that infants and those who are mentally deficient cannot sin personally—two additional exceptions to the concept of “all” having sinned.

Therefore, when Paul uses the word, “all”, it is obvious that he is not attempting to declare that every single individual who ever lives will be guilty of committing personal sin; rather, he is attempting to communicate with clarity the universality of sin and the idea that both Jews and Gentiles alike are sinners before God. He is not attempting to exclude the possibility of exceptions.

Thus, the word “all” in Romans 3:23 cannot be used to disprove the doctrine of sinlessness of Mary.
 
gr8full said:
OK, here’s the trouble I’m having. I started RCIA last year, and about this time last year decided I couldn’t go through with coming into the church because of the following:
21But now apart from the Law (AD)the righteousness of God has been manifested, being (AE)witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

22even the (AF)righteousness of God through (AG)faith (AH)in Jesus Christ for (AI)all those who believe; for (AJ)there is no distinction;
23for all (AK)have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24being justified as a gift (AL)by His grace through (AM)the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; (NAS) Romans 3:21-24.
The 23rd verse is where I get hung up. It says clearly that all have sinned. Not everyone but Mary. Since I left RCIA and stopped attending Mass and went back to attending protestant church I have been very unsettled and have missed Mass SO MUCH. I actually went to Mass today and was so happy to be there. I’ve since moved from the town I was in and attending RCIA, but even though it was a new location it was so awesome to be in a Mass again. I walked in and immediately it felt so great to be there. The service was a little different from the previous church because they sing some songs in Latin, but it was still great.
I overcame so much to just start RCIA last year, I didn’t take it lightly. It was very difficult for me to walk away because I love so much about the church. I just can’t seem to get past my issues with Mary. Not her actually, just the light she’s seen in with the church.
If anyone has any (name removed by moderator)ut that might help it would be great.
I’d be ever so gr8full…😉
Click to expand...
Please do not end your journey into the Catholic Church. Whatever concerns and doubts you have now can be overcome with some more study and persistence. We believe that Mary was preserved from orginial sin (and so remained sinless for her entire life) because she was chosen to be the Mother of God, and God cannot reside with sin. Mary is our heavenly mother and powerful advocate in heaven; she is daughter to God the Father, mother to God the Son and mystical spouse to the Holy Spirit, They can refuse her nothing. You just need a one on one discussion to make sense of all of this; you could call the parish office on Monday and make an appointment with a priest to talk about it.
 
I often wonder why Protestants take offense at the Catholic view of Mary. Do they think that Mary in anyway keeps us from worshiping her son? Or in any way impedes us from having a personal relationship with Jesus? I don’t get how she can be anything other than a help…
 
Thank you all for your (name removed by moderator)ut. The articles I’ve been directed to were really very insightful and helpful. I want to read them over again, but I feel this is just the type of information I was looking for to help me in my journey. I told my husband that I really felt this was the place for me(the Catholic Church) but I need to get over my hang ups. He is willing to take another look even though he never felt compelled to attend but did so out of his love for me. He is a committed Christian and loves the Lord with all his heard. I know this will be a great start for us.
 
paul_c said:
I often wonder why Protestants take offense at the Catholic view of Mary. Do they think that Mary in anyway keeps us from worshiping her son? Or in any way impedes us from having a personal relationship with Jesus? I don’t get how she can be anything other than a help…
Click to expand...
I’m not sure if you were speaking of what I wrote or just in general…however, I can tell you I’m not offended at what Catholics believe regarding Mary. I’m confused and don’t understand it. I think that is a much different thing. I never said it would impede me from having a relationship with Jesus. I just want to make sure I understand what the Church teaches so I can make the right choice. I’m not sure if you were born into the Catholic church if you would understand. I was raised for 40+ years in a primarily Southern Baptist church that taught me that we should respect Mary for what she did, and give her honor for that, but not because she was without sin.
But, as I said before the articles I was given to read and the other post have been very helpful.
 
gr8full said:
I’m not sure if you were speaking of what I wrote or just in general…however, I can tell you I’m not offended at what Catholics believe regarding Mary. I’m confused and don’t understand it. I think that is a much different thing. I never said it would impede me from having a relationship with Jesus. I just want to make sure I understand what the Church teaches so I can make the right choice. I’m not sure if you were born into the Catholic church if you would understand. I was raised for 40+ years in a primarily Southern Baptist church that taught me that we should respect Mary for what she did, and give her honor for that, but not because she was without sin.
But, as I said before the articles I was given to read and the other post have been very helpful.
Click to expand...
We believe that Mary was born without sin because she needed to be pure to be worthy of being the Mother of Jesus, After all, the Angel stated that she was Full of GRACE, did he not. Why do Protestants feel she had to have sinned. Because of the one quote from Paul that you referenced? Jesus is an obvous exception to that rule, why can’t Mary also be an exception?
 
gr8full said:
I’m not sure if you were speaking of what I wrote or just in general…however, I can tell you I’m not offended at what Catholics believe regarding Mary. I’m confused and don’t understand it. I think that is a much different thing. I never said it would impede me from having a relationship with Jesus. I just want to make sure I understand what the Church teaches so I can make the right choice. I’m not sure if you were born into the Catholic church if you would understand. I was raised for 40+ years in a primarily Southern Baptist church that taught me that we should respect Mary for what she did, and give her honor for that, but not because she was without sin.
But, as I said before the articles I was given to read and the other post have been very helpful.
Click to expand...
As one who was raised Baptist, I can sympathize with your concerns with Mary. It took me a while to get over the issues, b/c I was looking to get over the issues. It was only when I went to actually understand the Catholic teaching on Mary that I finally “got it”. A great help for you would be Scott Hahn’s book “Hail Holy Queen”. It breaks down the whole issue from the perspective of a former Protestant minister.

A couple of things to consider that helped me:
  1. Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. (Testament means Covenant, so OT means Old Covenant and NT means New Covenant). Just as the Jews were not allowed to touch the Ark of the Covenant (two were consumed by fire when they did), Mary has that same level of holiness. The AOTC was not worshiped by the Jews, but was a focus and pointed towards God. The Holy of Holies in the Temple housed the Ark. The AOTC held the Ten Commandments, Aaron’s rod, and manna. Mary held God. Think about that level of holiness that would be needed.
  2. In ancient Isreal, the queen was not the king’s wife, but his mother. The Queen Mother was a mighty position of power and authority. There is even examples of the Queen Mother ruling for her son, and examples of her being petitioned by someone, and then she brought it to the King for him to give the okay to. And this ties in perfectly with the story of the wedding. Jesus said it was not yet his hour, and with the request of his mother Mary, he grants his first miracle.
Hope it helps.
 
gr8full

If you look at post #9, 14/12/09, 5:30 pm Abu Re: The origin of Papal Infallibility you will find Christ giving His authority to Peter.

Now the Sacred Scriptures show in what esteem Mary is held, and added to this is the infallible teaching of Christ’s own Church through His Vicars (the popes) about her – particularly the dogmas of the Immaculate Conception, and of her Assumption into heaven.

I guess you will need to ponder and pray on these truths of faith.

God bless
 
I know sort of where you’re coming from, I’m a convert and I started going to Mass because of the peace I felt there (which I later realized came from the Blessed Sacrament), though I had lots of trouble with Catholic doctrines.

Over time, as I prayed and researched, I was able to accept all of these doctrines and became Catholic. 🙂

try to trust God and where He is leading you. Remember we need to interpret Scripture in the right way… the Bible says, “the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth”. The Church gives us the right interpretation of Scripture.

Here’s how I see that verse relating to Mary.

What it’s saying is that we all need a Savior because by nature, we’re all sinful (original sin). This can’t be talking about personal sin (sins we actually commit), because a newborn baby, for example, doesn’t have those. So it’s talking about the general human condition.

Well Mary is human so by nature she would have been a sinner too. But God intervened with a miracle and filled with grace at her conception, and at that moment, saved her by Christ’s merits. Rather than forgiving her past sins, He prevented her future sins. He does this with us too on a smaller scale… just think of all the stuff we would have done in our lives if we had NEVER found God.

God did this so that Jesus would not be dishonoured being in Mary’s womb, and so that she would be pure enough that the Son of God would receive His human nature from her. It’s all for His sake.

So what I’m trying to say is that Mary is part of the human race and would have shared in our condition too… but God prevented this. When it says, “all have sinned”, it means that we all need a Savior because of our condition. But Mary was also saved by Christ’s merits, only at a different time: at her conception.

If it helps, Christians since the very beginning have believed in the sinlessness of Mary. The Orthodox believe this too. This idea goes way back. Even the Reformers believed it!

God bless
 
Monica, thank you for really bringing it down to the bottom shelf for me! That helps it make so much more sense. I will continue to read and pray and I do know that this will be resolved. I do thank everyone for the (name removed by moderator)ut. I do have the book by Scott Hahn but it felt over my head when I tried to read it before. I may try to read it again, it’s been a while.
Again, thank you all!
 
gr8full said:
Monica, thank you for really bringing it down to the bottom shelf for me! That helps it make so much more sense. I will continue to read and pray and I do know that this will be resolved. I do thank everyone for the (name removed by moderator)ut. I do have the book by Scott Hahn but it felt over my head when I tried to read it before. I may try to read it again, it’s been a while.
Again, thank you all!
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Hi gr8tfull,

I understand completely what you are going through. I converted to Catholisism in o4 and had some questions about Mary. It is very hard to grasp many of the Catholic teachings and I finally decided that I was lead to the Church even though I didn’t understand it all I understood enough to continue. My first communion was worth it all. As far as Mary I have wondered and troubled at times until just recently. I am reluctant to try to explain this to you for fear of saying it wrong, but it solved all problems or questions I had with her.

In a Bible study in my church we are studying the Covential History of the Bible by Scott Hann.

As the Isrealites were on their way to Canan and carried the Arc of the Covenant with them a cloud of smoke hovered over the ark by day and fire by night. Later, once they had built the temple and the ark was in the holy of holies it the cloud of smoke stopped when the Isrealites stopped and led when they went forward.

Now jump forward to a young woman who had just been spoken to by an angel. Gabriel. She had been told the most wonderful news possible and she had to have been terrified but she responded with a humble, let it be done unto me.

In Luke 1:35, And the angel said to her in reply, "The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the most High will overshadow you. There fore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.

The word overshadow in Greek was used in both places to descrive the cloud of smoke over the ark of the covenant and when the holy spirit overshadowed Mary. THAT is what made me see the significance of Mary in the Bible. As Protestant I had been taught to push her aside but saw at that point how wrong that teaching was.

I pray this helps you the same way it helped me. I truly am glad that I went on to become Catholic for I have gained so much spiritually in the last five years. I encourage you to do the same. All your questions will be answered in time.

God Bless :gopray2:

Cora
 
paul_c said:
We believe that Mary was born without sin because she needed to be pure to be worthy of being the Mother of Jesus, After all, the Angel stated that she was Full of GRACE, did he not. Why do Protestants feel she had to have sinned. Because of the one quote from Paul that you referenced? Jesus is an obvous exception to that rule, why can’t Mary also be an exception?
Click to expand...
The Catholic Church does not teach that it was necessary for Mary to be without sin. The Church teaches it was fitting. Just wanted to clarify that!!!
 
gr8full said:
OK, here’s the trouble I’m having.

Rm 3:23 is where I get hung up. It says clearly that all have sinned.

What about Mary

If anyone has any (name removed by moderator)ut that might help it would be great.
I’d be ever so gr8full…😉
Click to expand...
The issue is not over creating Mary without sin. God created Adam and Eve without sin. So God creating people without sin is not a new or novel concept in scripture. It’s the second part, maintaining Mary sinnless throughout her life. Right?
  • There’s 2 ways to save someone. After they fall, or before they fall. Jesus, 2nd person of the blessed Trinity, and savior of the world, through whom all things are made, does both. If He is not able to do both i.e. not able to preserve His mother from all stain of sin, then the following passage from Jude IMO makes no sense.
Now to him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you without blemish before the presence of his glory with rejoicing, to the only God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and for ever. (Jude 24-25) This is why Mary could say God was her Savior (Lk 1:47)
  • if “ALL” can mean something less than absolutely “every” elsewhere in scripture, then the exception for Mary escaping sin, cannot be impossible as Protestants maintain.
Rm 1:29 “being filled with all unrighteousness…,” Rm 11: 26 “**all **Israel will be saved,” Rm 15:14, members of the Roman church …filled with **all **knowledge…" Does ALL mean ALL with no exceptions throughout scripture? Is no one righteous in scripture which is the opposite of All are unrighteous? We know scripture says some are righteous (scripture references at end of post) . Will ALL Isreal be saved? We know it would have been better that Judas (son of perdition) wasn’t born. Is every member of the Church of Rome filled with ALL knowledge? Because there are exceptions to ALL = EVERY, therefore, ALL can’t be absolutized in the way Protestants use it

We see Jewish idiom and hyperbole in passages of similar meaning. Jesus says: No one is good but God alone. {Lk 18:19; cf. Mt 19:17} Yet He also said: The good person brings good things out of a good treasure… {Mt 12:35; cf. 5:45, 7:17-20, 22:10}

Furthermore, in each instance above in Matthew and Luke where we see the English “good”, the corresponding Greek word is "agatho". Is therre a contradiction with the understanding of good? Jesus is merely drawing a contrast between our righteousness and God’s, but He doesn’t deny that we can be “good” in a lesser sense. We observe the same dynamic in the Psalms: *The Lord looks down from heaven on humankind to see if there are any who are wise, who seek after God. They have **all *gone astray, they are all alike perverse; there is no one who does good [Hebrew, *tob] no not one. {Ps 14:2-3; cf. 53:1-3 / Paul cites these in Rom 3:10-12} Yet in the immediately preceding Psalm, David proclaims I trusted in your steadfast love… {13:5}, which certainly is “seeking” after God! And in the very next he refers to those who walk blamelessly, and do what is right… {15:2}. Even two verses later he writes that …God is with the company of the righteous. (!!!) So obviously his lament in 14:2-3 is an indignant hyperbole and not intended as a literal utterance. Such remarks are common to Jewish poetic idiom. The anonymous psalmist in 112:5 refers to a good man (Heb. tob), as does the book of Proverbs repeatedly (11:23, 12:2, 13:22, 14:14,19), using the same word, tob, which appears in Ps 14:2-3.

And references to righteous men are numerable (e.g., Job 17:9, 22:19, Ps 5:12, 32:11, 34:15, 37:16,32, Mt 9:13, 13:17, 25:37,46, Rom 5:19, Heb 11:4, Jas 5;16, 1 pet 3:12, 4:18, etc., etc.).
 
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