Are all inspired?

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Hi

I know I should know the answer my self but—

I am in a conversation with a friend who is telling me that certain books of the Catholic Bible are there for history and are not inspired by God. She mentions the 7 books that Luther took out. She says that they were taken out because they are not inspired.

Now I believe that they are all inspired or they would not be there.

Can some one out there enlighten me?

Thank you in advance.
 
Luther took out the seven books because one of them: The Second Book of Maccabees, mentions offering sacrifice on behalf of the dead. Luther had ditched the Doctrine of Purgatory.

Late in the First Century AD, the Jews issued the Palestinian Canon which didnt include the seven so-called "apocryphal" books. By tossing out 2 Maccabees, to be "consistent", Luther had to toss out the other six. By the time of the Palestinian Canon, the Church was "the Israel of God", so for us the PC doesnt have any Scriptural authority.

Our OT is based on the Septuagint:
newadvent.org/cathen/13722a.htm

Keep in mind that the “original” Catholic Encyclopedia came out about 100 years ago, so its language is a bit different from ours!

If hed been able to get away with it, he wouldve ditched the Epistle of James, a so-called “epistle of straw”, because it contradicts his doctrine of “Faith Alone”: one of the twin pillars of the “Reformation”.

Anyway, that`s a start 🤷
 
The question really is “who gets to make the determination of inspiration?”. So, we need to understand who made the definition of the canon of Scripture; it was the Church, through much deliberation, prayer, and inspiration of the Spirit, who decided upon the canonicity of the books of the Bible.

Now, if some book wasn’t inspired, whose word should we take on this assertion? The Church’s, whose role it is to make these definitions, or some random guy? (My vote is “the Church”. ;))

If your friend says that the 7 books aren’t inspired, the question to ask in return is “and how do we know they’re not inspired? What’s our standard for determining inspiration?”
 
You might find this helpful

archive.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0009sbs.asp

I love Scripture and I find this argument deeply amusing. After almost 1600 years, Luther thought he knew better than anyone about divine inspiration and the canon of Scripture? :rolleyes:

The essential Church document on Scripture is the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation Dei Verbum. No. 11 states:
Those divinely revealed realities which are contained and presented in Sacred Scripture have been committed to writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For holy mother Church, relying on the belief of the Apostles (see John 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:19-20, 3:15-16), holds that the books of both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, with all their parts, are sacred and canonical because written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.(1) In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him (2) they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, (3) they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted. (4)
 
Luther didn’t “take them out” of his Bible, but did reduce them to an apocryphal section, as I understand, which essentially is to call them non-divinely inspired. I agree with the others, that Protestants must give cause for claiming what books are Scripture and which are not, and in all my plethora of conversations in the matter, they are not able to do so without inadvertently admitting to a temporal authority. Catholics believe this authority subsists within the Magisterium. But they do not believe in such an authoritative body, or if they want to say there used to be one, on what basis they make that claim and when that body lost authority. The whole issue of the canon, is in my humble opinion, one of the biggest self-defeating strikes against the Protestant tradition.

Best book I know on the subject: Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger by Gary Michuta
 
Hi

I know I should know the answer my self but—

I am in a conversation with a friend who is telling me that certain books of the Catholic Bible are there for history and are not inspired by God. She mentions the 7 books that Luther took out. She says that they were taken out because they are not inspired.

Now I believe that they are all inspired or they would not be there.

Can some one out there enlighten me?

Thank you in advance.
Luther also rejected the seven books because the original language was Aramaic and not Hebrew and the thinking was because they were written after the last book Malachi. There was also some controversy in including them in the original Latin Vulgate by St. Jerome but he in the end submitted to Church authority and translated them. The Jewish canon rejected them around this time when originally these 7 were included in the Jewish canon.
The Church always stood that they were inspired while others rejected them. Luther also wanted to exclude James, Jude and Revelations because they did not fit what he was trying to teach about faith and works.
 
Luther also rejected the seven books because the original language was Aramaic and not Hebrew and the thinking was because they were written after the last book Malachi. There was also some controversy in including them in the original Latin Vulgate by St. Jerome but he in the end submitted to Church authority and translated them. The Jewish canon rejected them around this time when originally these 7 were included in the Jewish canon.
The Church always stood that they were inspired while others rejected them. Luther also wanted to exclude James, Jude and Revelations because they did not fit what he was trying to teach about faith and works.
I thought the Deuterocanon was written in Greek?
 
I thought the Deuterocanon was written in Greek?
Depends on the manuscript. For instance:

The first book of Maccabees I have found to be in Hebrew, the second in Greek, as can be proved from the very style." Jerome, Preface to Samuel and Kings [Prologus Galeatus] (A.D. 391).

It also seems Sirach and Judith and Tobit were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls in Hebrew or Aramaic.
 
The question really is “who gets to make the determination of inspiration?”. So, we need to understand who made the definition of the canon of Scripture; it was the Church, through much deliberation, prayer, and inspiration of the Spirit, who decided upon the canonicity of the books of the Bible.

Now, if some book wasn’t inspired, whose word should we take on this assertion? The Church’s, whose role it is to make these definitions, or some random guy? (My vote is “the Church”. ;))

If your friend says that the 7 books aren’t inspired, the question to ask in return is “and how do we know they’re not inspired? What’s our standard for determining inspiration?”
Good point and a good question to ask her.
 
Thank you one and all. Now I am going to go back and look up some of what was posted here.
God Bless
 
Depends on the manuscript. For instance:

The first book of Maccabees I have found to be in Hebrew, the second in Greek, as can be proved from the very style." Jerome, Preface to Samuel and Kings [Prologus Galeatus] (A.D. 391).

It also seems Sirach and Judith and Tobit were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls in Hebrew or Aramaic.
OK I see. Does the fact that we didn’t find the Dead Sea Scrolls until 1946 mean that we only had Greek versions until their discovery?

Off the top of my head, I seem to remember the argument given by the Jews at Jamnia in 100AD not to include books like Wisdom, was their Greek origin (written for Alexandrian Jews who were face with Hellenizing culture). I’ve always though the real reason was that Jesus is actually so explicitly portrayed in these books it’s amazing!
 
OK I see. Does the fact that we didn’t find the Dead Sea Scrolls until 1946 mean that we only had Greek versions until their discovery?

Off the top of my head, I seem to remember the argument given by the Jews at Jamnia in 100AD not to include books like Wisdom, was their Greek origin (written for Alexandrian Jews who were face with Hellenizing culture). I’ve always though the real reason was that Jesus is actually so explicitly portrayed in these books it’s amazing!
I’m not an expert on this subject, but it seems that at least with 1 Maccabbees, that Jerome in the year 391 (see quote in my previous post) or so determined by the textual cadence of whatever manuscript he had, that the original was Hebrew. But I’m not sure exactly what language known copies had been up until 1946.
 
Off the top of my head, I seem to remember the argument given by the Jews at Jamnia in 100AD not to include books like Wisdom, was their Greek origin (written for Alexandrian Jews who were face with Hellenizing culture). I’ve always though the real reason was that Jesus is actually so explicitly portrayed in these books it’s amazing!
Actually, the hypothesis of “the council of Jamnia” was proposed in the 1800s, and contemporary scholars no longer consider it to be an accurate explanation – whereas it was thought that there must have been a council that solidified the Jewish canon, this notion is no longer held to be true, among scholars.
 
Actually, the hypothesis of “the council of Jamnia” was proposed in the 1800s, and contemporary scholars no longer consider it to be an accurate explanation – whereas it was thought that there must have been a council that solidified the Jewish canon, this notion is no longer held to be true, among scholars.
There have been many threads here on the Council of Jamnia showing that it’s been thoroughly debunked. Sadly, some apologists (e.g. Gary Michuta) continue to perpetuate the notion–and the myth lives on.
 
Depends on the manuscript. For instance:

The first book of Maccabees I have found to be in Hebrew, the second in Greek, as can be proved from the very style." Jerome, Preface to Samuel and Kings [Prologus Galeatus] (A.D. 391).

It also seems Sirach and Judith and Tobit were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls in Hebrew or Aramaic.
Medieval copies of Ben Sira (aka Sirach) in Hebrew were found at the Cairo Geniza in 1896 well before the DSS were even found. What was discovered at Qumran were small insignificant fragments from Cave 2 (2QSir, aka 2Q18) circa the 1st century BC, as well as the entire second canticle after the epilogue (Sirach 51:13-30) in the Psalms scroll from Cave 11 (11QPs[sup]a[/sup], aka 11Q5). This manuscript, dated to the first half of the 1st century AD, and the incomplete scroll found at Masada (preserving bits of chapters 1 to 7 and large portions corresponding to 39:27-44:17), necessarily in existence before its fall in AD 73-74, both substantially identical with the Hebrew Sirach found at Cairo, prove that the Genizah text was not a medieval retranslation of the Greek text into Hebrew. The Cave 11 passage moreover is demonstrably closer to the original than the corresponding section in the Geniza manuscript. These texts are in substantial agreement with the ones discovered in Cairo, although there are numerous minor textual variants.

As for Tobit, Cave 4 in Qumran yielded remains of four Aramaic (4Q196-99) and one Hebrew (4Q200) manuscripts of the book, of which two scrolls - the papyrus Tob[sup]a[/sup] (196) and the leather Tob[sup]b[/sup] - have yielded copious extracts. Because of damage and deterioration, none of these scrolls were completely preserved, but all fourteen chapters are represented. The best-preserved of the five is 4QpapTobit[sup]a[/sup]ar, which contains portions of chapters 1-7 and 12-14. In contrast, very little text is preserved in 4QTobit[sup]c[/sup]ar (14:2-6:10?) and 4QTobit[sup]d[/sup]ar (7:11; 14:10). Now you really have to remember that there are two Greek versions of the text: the shorter form, called Greek I (G1) by Robert Hanhart in his edition of the Septuagint, found in Codex Vaticanus, Alexandrinus, Venetus, Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 1594 and most cursive manuscripts; and the Greek II (G2) version, which is 1700 words longer, found in Codex Sinaiticus and partially in cursive manuscript 319 and the 6th-century Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 10763. Out of the two texts G2 closely aligns with the Hebrew and Aramaic fragments from Qumran, and thus, is presently deemed by most scholars to be the more original of the two Greek versions. All of the Qumran fragments represent a Semitic text from which the reasonably free longer Greek version was made. The Aramaic version is thought to be more likely the original.

We do not have any copies of Judith, Baruch, 1 and 2 Maccabees, and Wisdom of Solomon. There is a possible fragment of the Epistle of Jeremiah in Greek (pap7QEpJer gr), which is in a bad state: only two words (therefore and them) and parts of seven others have survived. The thing is, the most significant fact disclosed by the Qumran discoveries is that neither the Semitic texts nor the Greek translations of the deuterocanon display the same level of unification as do the protocanonical OT books.
 
=Phyllo;9735311]Hi
I know I should know the answer my self but—
I am in a conversation with a friend who is telling me that certain books of the Catholic Bible are there for history and are not inspired by God. She mentions the 7 books that Luther took out. She says that they were taken out because they are not inspired.
Now I believe that they are all inspired or they would not be there.
Can some one out there enlighten me?
Thank you in advance.
he wrong:)

Eph.3: 9 to 12 “And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [SINGULAR: meaning THE CATHOLIC Church] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our faith in him

John 12: 48-49 He who rejects me and does not receive my sayings has a judge; the word that I have spoken will be his judge on the last day. For I have not spoken on my own authority; the Father who sent me has himself given me commandment what to say and what to speak.”

2nd. Peter 1: 16-21 “You will do well to pay attention to this as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.”

**AND THIS IS WHY; EVEN IN THE KING JAMES BIBLE

2ND. TIM. 3:16-17**
“All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”

God Bless, keep asking questions,
pat /PJM
 
There have been many threads here on the Council of Jamnia showing that it’s been thoroughly debunked. Sadly, some apologists (e.g. Gary Michuta) continue to perpetuate the notion–and the myth lives on.
Well, considering that it was the scholarly consensus for about a century before it was reevaluated and more or less ‘debunked’, that’s to be expected. Old habits die hard. I mean, look at the documentary hypothesis: while it continues to be influential in many ways today, it no longer dominates scholarly debate as it did for the first two thirds of the 20th century. In fact, almost no one today holds the hypothesis as Julius Wellhausen originally formulated it: those who continue to hold it today do so in a more or less modified form. 🤷
 
Well, considering that it was the scholarly consensus for about a century before it was reevaluated and more or less ‘debunked’, that’s to be expected. Old habits die hard. I mean, look at the documentary hypothesis: while it continues to be influential in many ways today, it no longer dominates scholarly debate as it did for the first two thirds of the 20th century. In fact, almost no one today holds the hypothesis as Julius Wellhausen originally formulated it: those who continue to hold it today do so in a more or less modified form. 🤷
Council of Jamnia–I guess we can agree it has a lot of sticking power. But I think people who continue to refer to it still today are just not being very responsible with their work; even a simple glance at Wikipedia would show there is a significant problem with the theory. Just my opinion.

Documentary Hypothesis–The documentary hypothesis at its most basic level—that anomalies and inconsistencies in the Torah can be explained by the text being a composite work of different authors—is still the overwhelmingly predominant view in biblical scholarship. But what has changed since Wellhausen are theories about the composite pieces, their origins and their dates. Certainly scholars in the U.S. are pretty tired of the topic, but that doesn’t mean they’ve abandoned the hypothesis. And in Germany for example, doing traditional source criticism is even today the essence of what it means to be an Old Testament scholar.

So I guess my objection to the comparison is that the Council of Jamnia is a theory that some scholars once held but then people eventually realized that it is more or less baseless. Scholars haven’t come to the same conclusion about the Documentary Hypothesis–it’s just that most are sick of slicing and dicing the text and would rather work on other things.
 
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