Are Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses really coming closer together in dialogues?

[K2CDS]

I was taught ( and taught others) that Jesus is Jehovah God’s first and only direct creation and through Jesus all other things were created. As I understood it - Jehovah was the architect and Jesus was the contractor - the Father made the plans and the Son did the work. I don’t recall acutal verses (JW days were more than a decade ago - jikes! make that almost 2 decades ago - gosh I’m getting old ) but " I was the Master workman at his side" from Psalms comes to mind. And Corinthians (colossians?) “through him all things were made, nothing was made that wasn’t made by him (Jesus)” Forgive my lame references - too lazy to look them up. In other words, I would not have been phazed in the least by this line of reasoning as a JW.

OK - I hogged the thread enough - someone else write something! LOL

Yes, that is supposedly their latest explanation. But it still does not reconcile with John 1:1-13. They still cannot explain it satisfactorily.

 

[K2CDS]

How does that make them any different from Catholics, or from some Protestant groups ? Baptists & Catholics & JWs are all equally stubborn (as some would see it) in holding to their beliefs no matter what - they merely happen to hold beliefs that are probably impossible to reconcile.​

Have you read A. A. Hoekema’s “The Four Major Cults” ? He refers to Martin’s work, especially when explaining why he consider’s that Martin’s conclusion about the SDAs - that they are Evangelicals with a few odd frills - does not hold. It’s an excellent book, especially in its consideration of why Church people join cults: it’s refreshingly free of the bitter negativity all too common in such books.

Yes, I agree, we are stubborn in our beliefs but are not brainwashed. We do have open minds and are not subject to “dis-fellowshipping” and other torment that the JW would go through if he/she would dare to question or think other than what the watchtower determines.

And yes. I have read Hoekema’s book. It is interesting, but I do not agree with his assessment of the adventists. They do belive in the Trinity and hold to many major Christian tenets, although they are a bit on the odd side. I do not consider them a cult although they are right on the border, a very thin line, like the difference between genius and insanity.

There are also many other very good books available that expound the cult systems of the Watchtower and others.

 

[adelore]

The sad thing is they can’t even have a friend that is not a JW. I can’t meet with either of them on an individual basis. I have also read that once they are JW’s they can’t very easily get away from their faith even if they want to.

Years ago a JW lady came to my door, (this is when I was away from attending the Catholic Church,) I asked her if I could ask her a question. She smiled and said Yes. I asked her why they didn’t believe in Jesus. She smiled and said, “I hear that a lot, by the way we do.”

Anyway through conversation she knew that I had been raised Catholic, we did set up a Bible Study together. Only with the conditions that we could be friendly to Argee that we could Disagree on things. From there the Bible Study went on for years… I did attend their Kingdom Hall only twice. (just to visit, I wasn’t ready to Join any other church, she knew this.)

Years ago, JW’s did celebrate Christmas, with the Tree ect. Now they don’t, they feel the tree is of Pagan Roots. (not to mention that they feel Dec. 25 is not the Birth Date of Jesus, they feel the “real” date of his birth is not known, only the time of year.) I have many of their books, their Bible, and have had the Watch Tower and Awake Mag. and have read them over the years.

In their book Reasoning from the Scriptures under the heading of Jesus Christ on page 209 it states:

**Jesus Christ:

Definition: The only-begotten Son of God, the only Son produced by Jehovah alone. This Son is the firstborn of all creation. By means of him all other things in heaven and on earth were created. He is the second-greatest personage in the universe. It is this Son whom Jehovah sent to the earth to give his life as a ransom for mankind, thus opening the way to eternal life for those of Adam’s offspring who would exercise fatih. This same Son, restored to heavenly glory, now rules as King, with authority to destroy al the wicked and to carry out his Father’s original purpose for the earth. The Hebrew form of the name Jesus means “Jehovah is Salvation”; Christ is the equivalent of the Hewbrew Ma.shi’ach (Messiah), meaning “Anointed One.” **end of quote from their book Reasoning from the Scriptures.

Now do I think they are a “Christian Group”? Yes, I do…I just think they are **confused **about a few things…like most Protesent Groups.

They do believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. They just don’t believe all three are One. They do Believe that the Father sent Jesus and then Jesus sent the Holy Ghost. They do believe that Jesus was with the Father and that all things were created through Him (Jesus).

I think we as Catholics need to be a little more understanding of JW’s. Like others who are quick to “accuse Catholics” on things, we need to be more Christian like, and try to understand “how and why” they believe the way they do. This does not mean we have to Agree with them, but if we understand what they believe and why, then we can wittness back to them with Christian Love.

The Lady and I became good friends…then she moved…so our Bible Study Stopped after 6 years. But I wish I would have known then what I know now…so I could have Shown her in the Bible, why Catholics believe what we do.

When I grew up as a Catholic our CC program never taught us why or where to find it in the Bible…Years later now with the internet and Catholic Books easy to get…I now know Why and Where to find it, to show others Why we believe what we do and Why we do what we do.

Do i think they are Christians…without a doubt I do…they just don’t have all the correct information.

Let us not judge them and say they are not Christians…let us be as prepared as they are…so that we can Wittness Back to them.

Don’t be like others who condem the Catholics, (because they really don’t know what we believe, they only know what they read on the internet or in books about Catholics)

If you truely want to Wittness to someone, you also have to be willing to Listen, to what they have to say, otherwise how can you start on a common ground?

By the way when this lady is back in the area to Visit…she always stops by and we have coffee and chat…yes they can have friends who are not JW’s. But it is true that they have a close knitt of friends who mostly are JW’s. That is because they are very Active in their Kingdom Hall and such.

 

[jw2lds2catholic]

.

They do believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. They just don’t believe all three are One. They do Believe that the Father sent Jesus and then Jesus sent the Holy Ghost. They do believe that Jesus was with the Father and that all things were created through Him (Jesus).
.

Hmm. As a former JW, they do not believe in a trinity in any form. Jehovah is God the Father, Jesus, his Christ, was the Jehovah first and only direct creation, and the Holy Spirit is Jehovah’s active force usable by Jesus with Jehovah’s permission. The Holy Spirit is not a person, personage or in any other way a tangible being. It is likened to electricity coming from the power plant - the medium by which Jehovah’s will is accomplished.
I worry about the almost dismissal way you used the word “just” as in “they just don’t believe” conveys a sense of unimportance. According to John gospel: “This is eternal life that they may know you and whom you have sent, Christ” (paraphrase). Knowing who and what God is, is of upmost importance. If I misread your message, I apologize in advance.
As a former JW, I struggled mightily with the Trinity doctrine. That was what got me to be JW - was proving to myself beyond a shadow of doubt that Jesus was not God. It took a decade + to ‘reprogram’ myself and surrend to God that I can’t and won’t know everything. But taking of the body and blood of Jesus in Mass is the closest God has given me to answering my prayer of knowing him as his is. Jesus is God and to deny that is to deny Christ.
Peace.

 

[K2CDS]

Please keep in mind that regardless of what the Watchtower says about Jesus being created before all creation, they still CAN NOT reconcile their explanation to the gospel of John 1:1-3 not matter how liberal the translation. Please stop and think about it:
NOTHING WAS MADE that the Logos DID NOT MAKE!!!

 

[Catholic_Dude]

Please keep in mind that regardless of what the Watchtower says about Jesus being created before all creation, they still CAN NOT reconcile their explanation to the gospel of John 1:1-3 not matter how liberal the translation. Please stop and think about it:

                 NOTHING WAS MADE that the Logos DID NOT MAKE!!!

That really needs to be combined with Is 44:
24 "This is what the LORD says—
your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
I am the LORD,
who has made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who spread out the earth by myself,

 

[K2CDS]

That really needs to be combined with Is 44:
24 "This is what the LORD says—
your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
I am the LORD,
who has made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who spread out the earth by myself,

There are many other passages in scripture that can be read in the light of John 1-1:3.
No matter how hard the Watchtower tries to say otherwise, it cannot contradict the powerful word and truth of God! Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and the Most Holy Trinity does exist.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Eleichem

 

[K2CDS]

adelore:

I understand your position and compassion for the individual JWs. They do need our prayers for the Holy Spirit to open their eyes and minds to the falseness of the Watchtower doctrines.

Sorry to say, JWs, like Mormons, Christian Science adherents, The Way, etc., are not
Christians even though they all call themselves such. A Christian is one who accepts Jexus Christ totaly and completely as our God and Saviour without reservation! The JWs, and these others, do not or have reservations.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Shm’a. Yisroel, adonai eleyenu, adonai echod!

 

[K2CDS]

In answer to the teachings (doctrine) of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, also known

as the Jehovahs Witnesses, and other reigious organizations, who deny the existence of the

Holy Trinity and that Jesus is God, the following is presented as proof that there is a Holy

Trinity, Father, Son,and Holy Spirit, and that Jesus is God the Son as presented in scripture

( the Bible).With all believing Christians, scripture of both the old and new testaments is the

inerrant infallible word of God. Although written by men, it was written under the inspiration

of the Holy Spirit. Many men down through the ages have tried to disprove the scriptures as

man’s idea and as folly, fantasy, contradictory, etc. all have failed to do so, proving that it IS

the Word of God.

To begin with, the Wtchtower claims that"The word trinity does not appear, or is mentioned,

in the bible and therefore the so called trinity does not exist". It is also claimed that religio-

ists have made it up following the “trinities” of ancient pagan religions. They are correct that

the word trinity is not mentioned in scripture. But, the trinity is alluded to in the old testament

and is presented in the new testament as fact. That the Holy Trinity does exist is fact even

though it is a mystery. The full revelation will be presented to us when we meet our creator.

The Watchtower also teaches that before Jesus came to earth he was the archangel Michael

and that he was adopted as the Logos by God (the Father) after His resurrection. Also, that

according to John 1:1-3 the Logos is NOT God but A god. If this is so, then how to explain

John 1 when he says that the Logos made everything and nothing was made that He did not

not make? Therefore, if Jesus was Michael, who was made, and is the Logos who made every

thing, how then could He have made himself? The Watchtower would find it hard to reconcile

their explanation with John 1:1-3 no matter how liberal the translation. In Genesis 1:1-31 God

created all. If the Logos created (made) everything, and Jesus is the Logos, then Jesus MUST

be God! In Isaiah 44:24 God says "…I alone created you. I am the creator of all things…when I

made the earth, no one helped me.". And in Isaiah 45:18 , Isaiah says of God " The Lord created

the heavens- He is the one who is God. He formed and made the earth…" Now, then if the Logos

made all things and Jesus is the Logos, then Jesus IS God the Son.

Again, Isaiah says in Is 9:6 “A child is born to us…He will be called…Mighty God…”.

This is understood by all to refer to Jesus, but the Watchtower says "Ah, even though it per-

tains to Jesus, he may be a mighty god but he is not Almighty God!". If this is so, then why

is the God of Israel called a “Mighty God” in Isaiah 10:21 since Israel worships only the one

true God? Isaiah 17:7 says that "…people will turn for help to their Creator, the holy God of

Israel". In Isaiah 43:15 God says "I am the Lord, your holy God. I created you, Israel, and I

am your King". The Creator is the Logos and since Jesus is the Logos He Must be the holy

Almighty God of Israel!

The apostle Thomas, in John 20:28, when he sees the reurrected Jesus calls Him " My Lord

and my God". The Watchtower says that Thomas was surprised to see Him ( which may have

been true ) and used that expression much as we use “Oh, my God” today. What the Watch-

tower fails to realize is that Thomas, like all Jews of that day, was devout and orthodox and

would consider an expression like that towards another human being as sheer blasphemy.

When Thomas said this to Jesus, he knew exactly what he was saying and acknowledged

that Jesus was God, the Son. Also, why did the apostles worship Jesus ( Mat 28:17 and Lk

24:52 ) when worship belongs to God alone and Jesus did not rebuke them?

In Exodus 3:14, when Moses asks God what His name is, God says that He is Called “I AM”,

“I am who I am,That is My name forever”. Jesus, when telling the Jewish authorities who

He is, said “I Am Who I Am” ( Jn 8:28 ). Again in John 8:58 He tells them again that "Before

Abraham was I Am". “But”, says the Watchtower, "if Jesus is God then why does he say in

John 14:28 that the Father is greater than he is?". The answer is yes the Father is greater

than He is . Isn’t your father greater than you are? Jesus said this to distinmguish His

position of filial relationship, not in glory, majesty, or power.

In John 1:18, John says that no one has ever seen the Father. Jesus emphasizes this in John

6:46 where He says that no one has seen the Father except the Son and is repeated again in

1John 4:12. If this is so, then who was it that appeared to Adam, Abraham ( Gen 12-7, !8:1 ),

Moses, Aaron, Nadeh, etc. ( Ex 24:9-11 ), Samuel ( 1S 3:10 ), Ezekiel ( Ez 26:28 ) and others?

If it wasn’t God the Father then it had to be Jesus, God the Son.

Continuing scripture, God is called saviour in Isaiah 12:2 and 44:24, 1Timothy 1:2 and 4:10 and in

Titus 1:3, and in the book of Revelation.Since Jesus came to earth as our saviour and Jesus is

not God, then we have two saviours, God and Jesus.This makes no sense. We either have two

saviours or Jesus is God the Son.

(continued)

 

[K2CDS]

(Continuing the Trinity)

There are numerous other instances in scripture that show and prove that Jesus IS God and the

second person of the Holy Trinity.The third person of the Holt Trinity is the Holy Spirit. The Watch-

tower says that “The holy spirit is the active force of God, much like a radar beam”.Denying the

existence of the Holy Spirit and relegating Him to existence as a “radar beam” is tantamount to

blasphemy. How can a “radar beam” speak, teach, send forth, bestow gifts, etc.? These are not

the actions of an “active force” but of an entity. In Acts 5:3-4, Peter calls the Holy Spirit God when

he tells Ananias that he lied to God, the Holy Spirit. How can you lie to an active force like a "radar

beam"?

In Acts 8:29, the Holy Spirit talks to and sends the apostle Philip to teach the Ethiopean Official.

Again, how can an active force do this? The churches of Judea, Galilee, and Samaria all had a

time of peace through the help of the Holy Spirit and all grew in numbers ( Acts 9:31 ). In the

church at Antioch, while Paul, Barnabas, Simeon, Lucius, and Manaen were serving the Lord and

fasting, the Holy Spirit said to "Set apart for me Barnabas and Paul, to do the work for which I

have called them" ( Acts 13:1-3 ). And, in Acts 13:4 they are sent by the Holy Spirit to preach

the word of God. The Holy Spirit speaks ( Heb 3:7 ), teaches ( Heb 9:8 ), gives witness ( Heb

10:15 ), answers ( Rev 14:13 ), and does many other things that only God can do, and does.

These are but a few examples in scripture that show, and prove, that the Holy Spirit is not "… an

active force, like a radar beam…" but is God and the third person of the Holy Trinity.

It is asked of individual Jehovahs Witnesses, and others who do not believe in the Holy Trinity, to

open their eyes and pray for the truth and enlightenment as found in scripture and not blindly

accept all the erroneous teachings of the Watchtower.and others. We, who are blessed by the

Holy Trinity, earnestly pray for your understanding and acceptance of the truth as revealed in and

by the scriptures.

NOTE: All biblical refrences are from The Good News Bible, the Saint Joseph Bible and the New

International Version of the Holy Bible.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem