Are "Catholics" really Catholic, or mostly Scriptural illiterates?

[Mt_28_19_20]

Yes, many of our Baptist brethern are quite good at throwing around bible verses…but then they misinterpret the meaning so often. On the other hand, I’d say Catholics don’t really lag THAT FAR behind our main stream protestant brethern in the number of hours spent studying scripture OUTSIDE of Church. Inside Church, we generally get MORE scripture than they do…but we follow along in a missalette instead of a personal bible.

I agree, that we as Catholic get a lot of Scripture as regular Sunday Mass participants, and more so with weekday Mass. Which is all the more reason for us to be literate in Scripture, especially compared to our Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ. My question is not about those Catholics who do mention Jesus and Scripture outside of Mass on a less than rare basis, and I know many such Catholics. My question was “If a Catholic rarely…”

As far as Catholics getting more Scripture, I’m not so sure that applies to all Protestant Churchs. I visited a friend’s church, and they read and studied quite a bit of Scripture in their Sunday morning service, and then many would return for the Sunday evening service for more. In between, there would be group studies during the week, and after the Sunday morning Mass, to study particular books in their entirely over a few weeks or months. Many Catholics are just as studious, though I wouldn’t make a blanket generalization. Some of my Protestant friends can run “Scriptural” circles around me if they wanted to, yet they are more charitable than to do so. They can mention Old Testament stories and verses in conversation that most Catholics, myself included, would wonder how they knew that. And these are not ministers, they are lay Protestants.

And yes, some may misinterpret the meaning whild “throwing around bible verses”. Yet, if we have the correct interpretation, why do we often not “resort” to mentioning Scripture verses in everyday conversations?

Peace,

Michael

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Practicing Catholics know the bible more than we are given credit for. We may not be able to spout off chapter and verse numbers the way Protestants do, but we have a grasp of the Gospel message by assimilation, not by indoctrination. The bible itself says faith comes by HEARING the Word of God, not by reading. (1 Thess. 2:13) We are constantly challenged by the Church to live the Gospel with our lives, which is more important than reading the gospel with our eyes.

Very true, many Catholics know the Bible very well, and Scripture verses and parables may often come to mind. And yes, it is not about spouting off chapter and verse numbers. I like your reference of 1 Thess. Yet, I would keep in mind: 2 Tim 3:16-17 “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.”
Yes, it is most important that our lives reflect the Gospel. 2 Tim 3:16-17 affirms that. Knowing Scripture is not an end, merely a means to knowing Christ and guiding our daily lives.

Peace,

Michael

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Yet you make it clear that, in your experience, Catholics appear to be scripturally illiterate, and do not share the gospel or the name of Jesus often enough.

I never said all Catholics are Scriptural illiterates, many are very well versed. The question was “If a Catholic rarely…” My experience here and over the years, is that some rarely mention Jesus or Scripture outside of Mass. I am not the first Catholic to verbalize this observation.

Are you not judging the Catholicity of others, at the same time you are complaining that you are being judged? Most Catholics were brought up to believe in sharing the gospel through acts of mercy, in the Franciscan tradition “share the gospel always, and if necessary, use words”. The corporate and individual acts are the demonstration of the gospel. how is this sharing of the gospel “less” than the evangelical method of getting people “saved” by praying with them to receive Jesus?

No, I am not judging, merely asked a question in context of Catechism teachings. I could see where those who rarely mention Jesus or Scriptures, and consider themselves Catholic might not like the question. It’s meant to encourage speaking of Jesus and having Scriptural literacy, not to judge anyone. It was in examining how often I mention Jesus, or talk about Scripture outside of Mass, that I realized I should be more aware of what I am saying, or more to the point, what I avoided saying.
Interestingly, a Fransiscan tradtion is readily quoted, no relevant Scripture come to mind? Scripture is the inspired Word of God, as proclaimed by the Catholic Church.

The … but the fact that you say things that appear to contradict the teaching of the church.

The questions I asked remain, regardless whether some disagrees with me on “non-essential” issues.

Celibacy is not “required” of priests. … However, there are married priests.

As a Roman Catholic, I would be required to take a vow of celibacy, according to the presently accepted traditon in order to be ordained a priest. Thus, I do not step forward, in deference to the Church’s right make that a requirement.

What is most important to your faith is whether or not you accept Jesus. Jesus sent the Apostles, and declared “he who rejects you, rejects me”. When you reject the teachings brought to us through apostolic succession, you are rejecting Jesus.

Well, I do not reject Jesus. Nor do I reject Jesus calling a married man, Peter, to be an apostle and our first Pope. Nor do I reject Jesus for chosing Alexander VI, a fornicator, as a Pope in the apostolic succession.

Do you mean to say, then, that if I question your faith by mentioning Jesus and using sacred scripture, then you will be more satisfied?

Was the question not clear? I did not say anyone has a right to question another’s faith. Merely questioned whether someone has even less right to question based on what they do or do not say.

Catholics should rightly be uncomfortable with the evangelical use of scripture when it is interpreted privately, and verses taken out of context.

Anyone should avoid careless interpretation and taking verses out of context.

The tone of your question seems to imply that you consider Catholics to be ignorant of their scriptures.
Are some “Catholics” ignorant of Scripture? How would you answer the questions in the OP?

 

[MariaG]

If a Catholic rarely mentions Jesus Christ as their savior so that others may know the only true God and reflect the gospel by their words and daily life, and rarely, if at all, mentions Scripture in sharing or defending their faith, then are they really living their faith? Are they really Catholic? And do they have any right question whether someone else is Catholic?

I ask because several Catholics on this forum have questioned whether I am Catholic, since I disagree with required celibacy for priests, and am uncertain whether it is important to our faith if Mary is or is not a perpetual virgin. Then I realized, I don’t recall any of those who have questioned my faith mentioning Jesus or referring to Sacred Scripture. Often seems more focused on the Church being perfect, whether Protestants can agree on anything, and how awful Luther was. Someone even characterized mentioning Scripture as throwing out a road block. Are many Catholics that uncomfortable with the Church’s Sacred Scripture?

Michael

As someone who has questioned your denomination since I read your profile and it read “Catholic” but from your posts you “felt” more like a High Church Anglican or Sacramental Protestant, but not from the issues above of Mary’s virginity or priestly celibacy, let me chime in, and risk getting flamed again.

I personally quote scripture frequently, here on the forums and in real life. The last time I quoted Scripture in real life was to a former JW about 5 days ago. It was John 1:1 and told her to compare it to what her JW bible says. Next time I see her, in about 6 days, I will ask her if she looked it up:thumbsup:

The last time on the forums was, well, today. Sometimes I take the time to look up the exact verse, other times not, but am always willing to “find” the exact spot if questioned.

As for whether people have the “right” to question someone denomination, even if those who are questioned, take offense and see it as questioning their faith rather than an honest question of their denomination, I say that we do.

In real life, I never hesitate to ask someone what their denomination is and do so here as well. And although your profile read Catholic, there has been more than one person who has used that in their profile as a complete lie to make Catholics look bad or as I thought in your case, an Anglican who proudly claims the title Catholic, and I do not dispute their claim to do so, as long as they do not try to add “Roman” to mine.

Those who believe throwing out scripture is a roadblock are quite simply wrong in my opinion.

But also in my opinion, many Catholics do not chapter and verse of their bible. Some may know the bible stories from what the “moral” is, but don’t really recognize the story itself.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

The OP does indicate bias.

One can read bias in if they so choose. I gave the reason the question came to mind, and asked a question.

Then, why does it bother you?

Making an observation and asking a question related to the question does not mean one is necessarily bothered. I listen to 10 people and half mention the word coffee, and I ask why the other half don’t mention the word coffee, does that mean I’m bothered?

I think you must care, or you would not have made the OP! You have looked around, and found your brethren wanting. I am not sure why you have a problem. I think your feelings got hurt. To me, it seems like you are judging others.

I experienced something, I thought about it, looked at in in terms of past experience, and asked a relevant question. I admire many of my Catholic brethren, many who readily mention Jesus and Scriptures when seems appropriate. Do I admire everyone who calls themselves Catholic? No. Is that judging? No, only God knows their heart. If something looks like a zebra and I say it looks like a zebra, is that “judging”?

You do seem to be generalizing based on an experience with a few. I did go back and read the op. You did not use the word “we”. You used the word “they”, not including your own exalted self among “them”.

Again, I asked a question, did not make a generization. However, your bias in reading and responding to me is apparent in this. I am Catholic. I asked “If a Catholic…”. Thus the question applies to me as well. If I rarely mention Jesus Christ… am I really living my faith? Your use of the phrase “your own exalted self” speaks for itself.

Kinda has the tone of “who do they think they are, anyway!?”

Is that the tone you read into the question?

You say that your reason for the OP is your own personal experience on the forum.

Notice, I did not say the reason was solely based on forum experience?

I submit that perhaps you do not even know your own heart. In posting this question, you have presumed to judge your brother.

Think what you will. I asked a question. You presume to submit that I don’t know my own heart and that I presumed to judge? So, do tell, who asked, and who submitted a judgement. Really do need to be careful with one’s words

It is the tone in which it is posed. It seems to emanate from hurt feelings, and seems to judge others, and find them wanting.

A presumed tone, since the words do not contain a tone. Take them at face value, without assuming a tone.

However, in answer to your question, I think Catholics don’t know their bible well enough. If you agree, what are you going to do about it? If you are not Catholic, your parish priest will probably no allow you to lead a bible study.

Very interesting. I asked a question, based on the impression that some Catholics don’t appear to know their Bible well. And then you make the generalization “I think Catholics don’t know their bible well enough.”

“What am I going to do about it?” Let’s see, I bring up verses and mention Jesus when it seems appropriate, whether out to dinner with friends or family, or at work. I asked the question, which some disliked and labeled as "“judge your brother”, “not know my own heart”, “who do they think they are anyway!?”, “hurt feelings”. At least it caught the attention of some. I took the St Paul Center’s training program for leading a parish Scripture study, at my own cost. My parish priest was not interested in having the study in our parish.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

I reread the original post and there are some things that need to be said.

First, …

Hello Al,

 The original post is not detracting from Church Tradition and the Magisterium. Actually, your post reinforces the question. Given the importance of Tradition, Scripture, and the Magesterium, if a Catholic rarely mentions Scripture, are they no longer listening to the Magesterium's Catechism concerning Scripture? 
"131 "And such is the force and power of the Word of God that it can serve the Church as her support and vigor, and the children of the Church as strength for their faith, food for the soul, and a pure and lasting fount of spiritual life."109 Hence "access to Sacred Scripture ought to be open wide to the Christian faithful."110

132 "Therefore, the study of the sacred page should be the very soul of sacred theology. The ministry of the Word, too - pastoral preaching, catechetics and all forms of Christian instruction, among which the liturgical homily should hold pride of place - is healthily nourished and thrives in holiness through the Word of Scripture."111

133 The Church "forcefully and specifically exhorts all the Christian faithful. . . **to learn the surpassing knowledge of Jesus Christ, by frequent reading of the divine Scriptures. Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.**112 "
scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a3.htm#113

Michael

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Second, there are some phrases in the original post that are not familiar to me. I am a cradle Catholic, with a Catholic religious education of K-12. We used the Baltimore Catechism, the New Testament (in high school) and various issues of other books regarding the lives of the saints and church history.

For example, the expression “… Jesus Christ as their savior…” is only one that I have heard from Protestants. Never from a Catholic source.

Al, I am sorry you haven’t heard that before from a Catholic source, however, it is what the Catholic faith is about. From the Catholic Catechism:
2812 Finally, in Jesus the name of the Holy God is revealed and given to us, in the flesh, as Savior, revealed by what he is, by his word, and by his sacrifice. This is the heart of his priestly prayer: “Holy Father . . . for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.” Because he “sanctifies” his own name, Jesus reveals to us the name of the Father. At the end of Christ’s Passover, the Father gives him the name that is above all names: "Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."

Questioning “Mary’s perpetual virginity” … not a traditional Catholic discussion point.

Not pertinent to the OP.

“How awful Luther was”… we never discussed Luther. Any more than we discussed Calvin or any of the other Protestant theologians. We hardly even discussed the personalities or writings of the popes.

There is a HUMONGOUS amount of history, tradition, and other things to study about Catholicism. We used to study such as the different kinds of graces, the sacraments and sacramentals, the saints, all kinds of things, but some of the items in the OP were not big discussion points in my 65 years of being Catholic.

May God continue to bless you in your Catholic faith. Peace, Michael

 

[dcb188]

Hi. Just registered a few minutes ago.This is my very first post and I do want to find out where to go here for discussions about the Catholic view(s) of Scripture. I was born and raised a Catholic and ended up questioning several doctrinal issues but not the major major ones on which both Catholics and Protestants agree, e.g. The Trinity, Why Jesus Came, and other issues.
I do think that, as mentioned earlier, Protestants know their Bibles very well. I have been in touch with Dave Armstrong a few times and he definitely knows HIS Bible very well, also. But it seems to me lately that Protestants, while knowing their Bible well, are not as tolerant toward other people as are Catholics. This is a very very general statement, I know, so let me rephrase it to IN MY EXPERIENCE lately, it seems so. I have become more interested in Catholicism and I wonder about some doctrinal issues, still. Would like to discuss them on the forums without interrupting this thread.
Catholics are really Catholics even if they are not quoting the Bible. One can live the Bible as best we can without quoting from it with the ease that some Protestants may display. There are saved people within Catholicism and within Protestantism. I would have to describe myself, right now, as a Christian rather than Protestant or Catholic, again, at the moment. And the reason is not because I am unsure what to believe, in general. It is when it comes to specific things. But, not to stray from the thread at hand, I think the answer to the original post question here is that Catholics are really Catholic and a lot of them are in fact Scripture literate. Maybe someone can direct me as to the most proper way to get some answers to some questions I have, ones which you have heard a thousand times before, I know, but I am honestly seeking Truth, with a capital T. Another possible thread I just now thought of, and will start a new topic right now.

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

As someone who has questioned your denomination since I read your profile and it read “Catholic” but from your posts you “felt” more like a High Church Anglican or Sacramental Protestant, but not from the issues above of Mary’s virginity or priestly celibacy, let me chime in, and risk getting flamed again.

I personally quote scripture frequently, here on the forums and in real life. The last time I quoted Scripture in real life was to a former JW about 5 days ago. It was John 1:1 and told her to compare it to what her JW bible says. Next time I see her, in about 6 days, I will ask her if she looked it up:thumbsup:

The last time on the forums was, well, today. Sometimes I take the time to look up the exact verse, other times not, but am always willing to “find” the exact spot if questioned.

As for whether people have the “right” to question someone denomination, even if those who are questioned, take offense and see it as questioning their faith rather than an honest question of their denomination, I say that we do.

Great, go ahead and question if that is important to you. And when someone says they are Catholic, perhaps they are despite disagreeing with the tradtion of celibacy, wondering about perpetual virginity. My spiritual director has never questioned my Catholic faith, and if he doesn’t think I’m Catholic, should he be hearing my confessions?

In real life, I never hesitate to ask someone what their denomination is and do so here as well. And although your profile read Catholic, there has been more than one person who has used that in their profile as a complete lie to make Catholics look bad or as I thought in your case, an Anglican who proudly claims the title Catholic, and I do not dispute their claim to do so, as long as they do not try to add “Roman” to mine.

I never claimed to be Anglican, and have never attended an Anglican service. My friend’s dad is an Anglican minister, though I have never met his dad.

Those who believe throwing out scripture is a roadblock are quite simply wrong in my opinion.

But also in my opinion, many Catholics do not chapter and verse of their bible. Some may know the bible stories from what the “moral” is, but don’t really recognize the story itself.
I would agree that appears true sometimes. And I don’t think it’s about citing chapter and verse, however, knowing the story and reading it can help deepen and clarify understanding. Peace, Michael

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Hi. Just registered a few minutes ago.This is my very first post and I do want to find out where to go here for discussions about the Catholic view(s) of Scripture. I was born and raised a Catholic and ended up questioning several doctrinal issues but not the major major ones on which both Catholics and Protestants agree, e.g. The Trinity, Why Jesus Came, and other issues.
I do think that, as mentioned earlier, Protestants know their Bibles very well. I have been in touch with Dave Armstrong a few times and he definitely knows HIS Bible very well, also. But it seems to me lately that Protestants, while knowing their Bible well, are not as tolerant toward other people as are Catholics. This is a very very general statement, I know, so let me rephrase it to IN MY EXPERIENCE lately, it seems so. I have become more interested in Catholicism and I wonder about some doctrinal issues, still. Would like to discuss them on the forums without interrupting this thread.
Catholics are really Catholics even if they are not quoting the Bible. One can live the Bible as best we can without quoting from it with the ease that some Protestants may display. There are saved people within Catholicism and within Protestantism. I would have to describe myself, right now, as a Christian rather than Protestant or Catholic, again, at the moment. And the reason is not because I am unsure what to believe, in general. It is when it comes to specific things. But, not to stray from the thread at hand, I think the answer to the original post question here is that Catholics are really Catholic and a lot of them are in fact Scripture literate. Maybe someone can direct me as to the most proper way to get some answers to some questions I have, ones which you have heard a thousand times before, I know, but I am honestly seeking Truth, with a capital T. Another possible thread I just now thought of, and will start a new topic right now.

The Navare Bible series, and the Ignatius Bible series has notes with Catholic interpretaion, relevant quotes of the Catechsim, and cross-references. They are available as single books, for example if you want to study the book of Matthew, etc…
Also, the Catechism is a good resource, with excellent discussions. And of course, reading Scripture, so as to know what the interpretations apply to, knowing the “story” in context.

May God continue to bless you,

Michael

 

[MariaG]

Hi Micheal,

Great, go ahead and question if that is important to you. And when someone says they are Catholic, perhaps they are despite disagreeing with the tradtion of celibacy, wondering about perpetual virginity.

Just to clarify, I had not read or realized that you had any problems with the perpetual virginity or priestly celibacy when I asked you the question of your denomination. It truly had nothing to do with that nor would I have questioned you based on that. You just have the “flavor” of someone who not a Cradle Catholic and at the very least, had come from a Sacramental Protestant background.

Specifically:

Priestly celibacy is a discipline that one can freely question and disagree with.

As for the other, I used to say I disagree with the Church on certain doctrine, but that doesn’t mean that the Church isn’t right. Questioning and even disagreeing with the Church, as long as one ultimately recognizes the authority of the Church, is never wrong.

Wasn’t it Jerome who disagreed as to what should be included in sacred Scriptures? He disagreed quite vocally, but bowed to the decision of the Church, even while still disagreeing with her.

My spiritual director has never questioned my Catholic faith, and if he doesn’t think I’m Catholic, should he be hearing my confessions?

As for this, I really do not know what to say Michael:shrug:

God Bless,

Maria

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

I agree, that we as Catholic get a lot of Scripture as regular Sunday Mass participants, and more so with weekday Mass. Which is all the more reason for us to be literate in Scripture, especially compared to our Protestant brothers and sisters in Christ. My question is not about those Catholics who do mention Jesus and Scripture outside of Mass on a less than rare basis, and I know many such Catholics. My question was “If a Catholic rarely…”

As far as Catholics getting more Scripture, I’m not so sure that applies to all Protestant Churchs. I visited a friend’s church, and they read and studied quite a bit of Scripture in their Sunday morning service, and then many would return for the Sunday evening service for more. In between, there would be group studies during the week, and after the Sunday morning Mass, to study particular books in their entirely over a few weeks or months. Many Catholics are just as studious, though I wouldn’t make a blanket generalization. Some of my Protestant friends can run “Scriptural” circles around me if they wanted to, yet they are more charitable than to do so. They can mention Old Testament stories and verses in conversation that most Catholics, myself included, would wonder how they knew that. And these are not ministers, they are lay Protestants.

And yes, some may misinterpret the meaning whild “throwing around bible verses”. Yet, if we have the correct interpretation, why do we often not “resort” to mentioning Scripture verses in everyday conversations?

Peace,

Michael

“and after the Sunday morning Mass, to study particular books in their entirely over a few weeks or months”

typing error, intened to write “and after Sunday morning service…” my apologies for the typo.

Michael

 

[Mt_28_19_20]

Hi Micheal,

Just to clarify, I had not read or realized that you had any problems with the perpetual virginity or priestly celibacy when I asked you the question of your denomination. It truly had nothing to do with that nor would I have questioned you based on that. You just have the “flavor” of someone who not a Cradle Catholic and at the very least, had come from a Sacramental Protestant background.

Hello MariaG, Yep, cradle Catholic. Didn’t always take my faith seriously, and interestingly is was a Presbyterian friend who challenged me to take my faith more seriously. Ended up losing a few friends when I hung on to my Catholic faith.

Specifically:

Priestly celibacy is a discipline that one can freely question and disagree with.

I agree. Not all are as charitable as your view.

As for the other, I used to say I disagree with the Church on certain doctrine, but that doesn’t mean that the Church isn’t right. Questioning and even disagreeing with the Church, as long as one ultimately recognizes the authority of the Church, is never wrong.

I don’t assume I am right when I disagree, and do not look to find things to disagree with. However, when praying and studying to understand a teaching, will admit when I disagree. Again, not assuming I am right, just where my understanding and conscience is. Afterall, look how long it took for celibacy to become a tradition, and how long it took for perpetual virginity to be declared a teaching. What does that tell us?

Wasn’t it Jerome who disagreed as to what should be included in sacred Scriptures? He disagreed quite vocally, but bowed to the decision of the Church, even while still disagreeing with her.

Good example. The Church even looked to Jerome to defend the teaching of perpetual virginity in Against Helvidius.

As for this, I really do not know what to say Michael:shrug:

Hope you have a good day! God bless, Michael

God Bless,

Maria