F
flatliner
Guest
The title says it all. If you think Catholics are the only true Jews, argue for your position. If you think they are not, why not?
- Status
F
flatliner
Guest
Well, I guess I’ll start things off with my own view about Catholics being the only true Jews. Peter and the early disciples were Jews. They did not leave their faith to follow Jesus. Rather, they followed their faith to follow the Jewish messiah who, as predicted, came to fulfill the law. To deny that the Messaih came when He did is to deny the God of the Jewish faith. Such a denial, being heretical, removes people from the faith.
Now, we must be clear however that the word ‘Jew’ has come to mean ‘one who thinks the messiah has not yet come’ and is a distinction from ‘christian’ which means ‘one who thinks the messiah has come’. But if the messiah has come, and we all know He has, ‘jew’ the way it is now used, just means ‘one who has denied his lord’. The line of Jews from the early disciples to us never left the faith. So Catholics are the only true Jews, and the way we use the word ‘jew’ now is just a distinction from ‘true Jew’ or ‘Catholic’.
Now, we must be clear however that the word ‘Jew’ has come to mean ‘one who thinks the messiah has not yet come’ and is a distinction from ‘christian’ which means ‘one who thinks the messiah has come’. But if the messiah has come, and we all know He has, ‘jew’ the way it is now used, just means ‘one who has denied his lord’. The line of Jews from the early disciples to us never left the faith. So Catholics are the only true Jews, and the way we use the word ‘jew’ now is just a distinction from ‘true Jew’ or ‘Catholic’.
G
Ghosty
Guest
In my mind the word Jew has two meanings: Jewish by blood and Jewish by faith. Catholics are 100% Jewish by religion, there is absolutely no way for me to deny this. In fact, I came to the Church while on my way to Orthodox Judaism for just that reason. Jewish blood, however, in the sense of being descended from the tribes of Israel is a different question entirely, and is better dealt with genetics.
I believe, however, that religious Jews who do not accept the Messiah are also 100% Jewish, and I hope and pray that if they come to the grace and knowledge that Jesus was the Messiah, they would immediately become Catholic. There are many Jews today, espescially Orthodox, who live daily with the hope of the Messiah in their hearts and with prayers for his coming on their lips, and I can’t help but feel that they are 100% Jewish as well, because Judaism is hope and faith in the Messiah. We Catholics are just more fortunate, in my opinion, because we can see and interact with the Messiah and his works, while Jews are unfortunately unaware that their hopes and prayers have been answered. While it saddens me because the Jewish people deserve the Messiah so much, and were it not for them we would have no Messiah, it warms my heart to see that their faith is unshaken despite their erroneous belief that the Messiah is not yet with us. That is the kind of faith we should ALL have, and in that way I believe that Jews are STILL a light to the world; I know it is that faith that brought me to the Church (much to the dismay of the Orthodox rabbis I was speaking with, I’m sure
).
I believe, however, that religious Jews who do not accept the Messiah are also 100% Jewish, and I hope and pray that if they come to the grace and knowledge that Jesus was the Messiah, they would immediately become Catholic. There are many Jews today, espescially Orthodox, who live daily with the hope of the Messiah in their hearts and with prayers for his coming on their lips, and I can’t help but feel that they are 100% Jewish as well, because Judaism is hope and faith in the Messiah. We Catholics are just more fortunate, in my opinion, because we can see and interact with the Messiah and his works, while Jews are unfortunately unaware that their hopes and prayers have been answered. While it saddens me because the Jewish people deserve the Messiah so much, and were it not for them we would have no Messiah, it warms my heart to see that their faith is unshaken despite their erroneous belief that the Messiah is not yet with us. That is the kind of faith we should ALL have, and in that way I believe that Jews are STILL a light to the world; I know it is that faith that brought me to the Church (much to the dismay of the Orthodox rabbis I was speaking with, I’m sure
).
F
flatliner
Guest
Good points Ghosty. I wonder though, what messiah do they wait for and have faith in. It can’t be the Jewish Messiah, He has already come. So they wait on and have faith in a false messiah and have no faith in the Jewish messiah. Doesn’t this mean they don’t worship the God of Judeism?
R
Richard_Lamb
Guest
Catholics are the fullfilemnt of Judaism, Just Like Jesus came not to change the law but to fulfill it…
G
Ghosty
Guest
I would say they simply have faith in the Messiah that has already come, whether they know it or not.
Let me put it this way: What if you have faith that your loved one will come home after work. You trust them, and they promised they’d be home, and yet you don’t see them in the house. You’re sitting in a back room of the house, and you don’t realize that they’re home when really they are. Perhaps you expected them to pop into the room and say “Hey, I’m back,” but they haven’t. You may even hear noises in the rest of the house, and you’re convinced that there’s a burgler because your loved one would have said “Hello.” Yet, through all of this, you don’t say to yourself “My loved one lied to me,” but rather you say, “My loved one must still be at work, and I still trust them 100%.” Could you really be accused of not having faith in your loved one? I would argue that your faith is still strong, even though you are mistaken in your understanding of the situation. Even if you yelled “Get out of my house,” to this “burgler” (who’s really your loved one), you aren’t doing it because you hate your loved one.
The Jews of today are those people waiting for their loved one, and they have not given up hope despite the fact that time has dragged on, and signs have come to pass (the workplace has closed, according to the above story), and they cling to the promise above all else, knowing that their loved one would never lie to them. We Catholics are lucky because we can hug our loved one, AND we trust them, but the Jews are just as trusting, just perhaps a bit “confused” about the reality of the situation. To show such faith in the face of confusion, however, is truly remarkable, and we should all ask ourselves if we could maintain our faith as steadfastly if it appeared that God’s promises were so distant. I fear that many Christians would lose faith quickly if they couldn’t look at the fullfilled prophecies, yet the Jews have perservered for 2000 years without an official “sign”. Whether seemingly mistaken or not, that’s true faith; at least they haven’t fallen to apostacy and begun worshipping idols and false gods (though some non-religious Jews certainly have, but they’re not the one’s I’m talking about.)
As Catholics I think it’s our duty to reach out to our faithful Jewish brothers and sisters, and show them that the time for rejoicing is now, and thank them for keeping the watchlight burning well past their call of duty.
C
CathAnFanatical
Guest
thats interesting Ghostly, thanks for your posts.
I often wondered if they still await a Messiah.
I thought I read somewhere in the OT where it stated that after the Messiah came the line of David would end.
Is this right? Anyone remember this?
I bring this up because in Jesus’ time people knew their linage and Mary knew she was from the line of David.
but then again. Since Mary was a Perpetual Virgin, she would be the last line of David anyway wouldnt she?
Even her cousin Elizabeth only had St John the Baptist…
maybe this is where i got the theory…hmm.
ok, sorry to brainstorm on the thread
God Bless
I often wondered if they still await a Messiah.
I thought I read somewhere in the OT where it stated that after the Messiah came the line of David would end.
Is this right? Anyone remember this?
I bring this up because in Jesus’ time people knew their linage and Mary knew she was from the line of David.
but then again. Since Mary was a Perpetual Virgin, she would be the last line of David anyway wouldnt she?
Even her cousin Elizabeth only had St John the Baptist…
maybe this is where i got the theory…hmm.
ok, sorry to brainstorm on the thread
God Bless
M
Melchior
Guest
While I appreciate your optimism I don’t think this holds. I am half Jewish and I can tell you that Jews who have heard of Jesus and have not yet converted it Christianity reject him - actively (this is true of my family as much as it pains me). Only the Hasidic Jews are still waiting for Messiah. Yet they have heard of the true Messiah and reject, just like the Pharisees did. The only faithful Jews are the ones who believe in their Messiah.
While they are certainly still Jews. They are not “Jews of the heart”. The only heirs to the promises to Israel are spiritual Israel, made up of Jews and Gentiles. But the membership in this Covenant depends on ones faith in the Messiah. Those who reject him are either not in the Covenant or worse, Covenant breakers.
Mel
C
CathAnFanatical
Guest
Just to be sure I heard you right, Jews are God’s chosen people, but only if they accept that Jesus is the Messiah?
what if they dont accept it but they were like the Hasidic jews you mentioned above?
Or did the ‘Chosen People’ end up being those that follow the Messiah (both Jews and Gentiles) and those that are of anything else are like the Pharisees?
I ask because I’ve been in many arguments with my family, who are non-practicing-but-no-everything-in-the-bible-miraculously pentecostals, and they look down on the Jews. In which I told them that they are still God’s Chosen People.
M
Melchior
Guest
I would say that the Church is God’s chosen people. We are spiritual Israel. Not that the Jews are no longer chosen. But all who are by Covenant (Baptism) grafted into Israel and remain by faith in the Messiah. Israel was the Church. When Christ came he brought Gentiles into the Church. Israel is the Church. So the Church is Jew and Gentile - this is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant. It is an expansion not a removal. But I, by virtue of my ethnic Jewishness, am no more “of Israel” than you. There is no Jew or Greek in Christ.
Mel
C
CathAnFanatical
Guest
excellent. I get it now 
very well said.
very well said.
O
OpusDei
Guest
The Jews are still God’s chosen people and, as has been stated by many Popes, we cannot fully understand God’s Divine Plan for them.
However, I do find it fascinating that, after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, the Jews never reinstated the High Priesthood. For that matter, they are now, and have been for many years, in control of Jerusalem. How come they haven’t rebuilt the Temple? What happened to the sacrifices???
If they don’t feel the Messiah has come, why not reinstitute these practices? I have spoken with many a Rabbi that cannot answer…
However, I do find it fascinating that, after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, the Jews never reinstated the High Priesthood. For that matter, they are now, and have been for many years, in control of Jerusalem. How come they haven’t rebuilt the Temple? What happened to the sacrifices???
If they don’t feel the Messiah has come, why not reinstitute these practices? I have spoken with many a Rabbi that cannot answer…
G
Ghosty
Guest
Melchior: It is specifically Hasidic Jews that I’m talking about when I speak of the deeply religious Jews who still await the Messiah. While it’s true that many of them have heard of Christ and denied him as the Messiah, it is also written that a veil lays over their heart (2 Cor 3), and that their rejection is not permenant (Rom 11). There will be those who persist in rejection to the very end, and their fate is known only to God, but I don’t think it’s fair to say that those who reject Christ because of a false veil (read: invincible ignorance) can be said to truly be denying the Messiah. It is by their stumbling that the Gentiles were brought into Israel, and their return will be “life from the dead.”
In another way I believe that, in a sense, it is their faith to the Messiah that has led them, ironically, to reject him. They are so persistant in the highest (and mistaken) standards of the Messiah that they fail to see that he stands in front of them. It is this same perserverence that allowed the Messiah to come into the world in the first place, so I while I mourn the persistance of error, I can’t fault this trait of the Jewish people. I have every hope that God will remove the veil from their hearts and bring the fallen branches back to the olive tree, and I personally don’t believe that the time has yet come for the veil to fall; individuals are graced with the vision of the Messiah, but corporately the Jewish people have yet to experience his coming.
I think we should pray daily for the modern Jews to see the Messiah that they’ve waited so long for, so that they can join us at the feast that they helped prepare for all people, so that they can see the fullness of their own faith for the first time.
In another way I believe that, in a sense, it is their faith to the Messiah that has led them, ironically, to reject him. They are so persistant in the highest (and mistaken) standards of the Messiah that they fail to see that he stands in front of them. It is this same perserverence that allowed the Messiah to come into the world in the first place, so I while I mourn the persistance of error, I can’t fault this trait of the Jewish people. I have every hope that God will remove the veil from their hearts and bring the fallen branches back to the olive tree, and I personally don’t believe that the time has yet come for the veil to fall; individuals are graced with the vision of the Messiah, but corporately the Jewish people have yet to experience his coming.
I think we should pray daily for the modern Jews to see the Messiah that they’ve waited so long for, so that they can join us at the feast that they helped prepare for all people, so that they can see the fullness of their own faith for the first time.
G
Ghosty
Guest
This is one of the key reasons for me coming to the Church instead of Orthodox Judaism. Everything in Judaism points to a great shift after the coming of Christ, and the final conquest and destruction of the Temple by Rome does not suffice to explain this change. When the Temple was first destroyed, the Jews rebuilt it upon reclaiming Jerusalem, and the sacrifices resumed, yet this has not happened in the 2000 *years *since the fall of the last Temple. I can see this only as an act of God. The sacrifices were not reinstated because, on some spiritual level, the Jewish people realized that the Temple as they had understood it was dead. The Temple wasn’t rebuilt because the Temple still existed, now in the fullness of the Church. This, to me, is an example of the unconcious faithfulness of the Jewish people inspite of their own blindness, and is an indication that God is not yet finished with them as a people in His plan.
F
flatliner
Guest
Yes, it is a good point. Why don’t the “jews” still sacrifice? Without atonement, and without a messiah, how do they expect to be forgiven of sin?
A
Answersplease
Guest
Y
yossi
Guest
I agree ‘Catholics are the fulfillment of Judaism; Just Like Jesus came not to change the law but to fulfill it…’
Jews are Jews (Yehudim, Benei Yisrael) and Catholics are Catholics (Christians, followers of Christ) and the divide is deep and emotional.
Messianic Jews and Hebrew Catholics are trying to resolve Jewish roots and culture within Christianity.
Jews are Jews (Yehudim, Benei Yisrael) and Catholics are Catholics (Christians, followers of Christ) and the divide is deep and emotional.
Messianic Jews and Hebrew Catholics are trying to resolve Jewish roots and culture within Christianity.
B
benidict
Guest
hi flatliner. do you have some premillinial views, and think the Jews will fall for a false messiah, that is yet to come? just need a clarification. but yes, the Jews worship the tetragramiton, same as us. they do not however, aknowlege God the Son. some Jews believe that the day of messiah is already past. there are differing views within Judaism on this topic. its a more complex faith than you might think. and worth studying. Peace
R
ryanoneil
Guest
When I think of the term “Jew” I think of someone who follows the Mosaic religion of Judaism (Mosaic Law). Catholics don’t practice this. We believe Jesus perfected the Moral Laws of Judaism, making a New Covenant (the Law of Christ)- which invites all people from every nation to become God’s covenant people.
G
Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Galatians 3:27
18 19 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28
**There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. **29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to the promise. ???
18 19 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28
**There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. **29
And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to the promise. ???
- Status