Are Christian clerks giving heterosexual couples a free pass, when it comes to issuing marriage licenses?

[Stephen168]

Stephen,
The issue I’m raising has nothing to do with assuming the best in people.

It has to do with the fact that there are plenty of heterosexual marriages that would not be valid according to Holy Scripture.

Yes, it has everything to do with assuming the best in people, as LilyM pointed out in her post. We assume the best in people every Sunday when they present themselves for communion. We assume they are what they claim to be.

I think the key word here is “investigation.” The Catholic Church does actually investigate. The Catholic Church does not make decisions about marriage “unknowingly.”

Your OP asked about “clerks who refused” not Catholic clerks who refused. As Todd977 pointed out, many Christians accept divorce and remarriage; including you. Your response was just saying why they shouldn’t believe what they believe, but you don’t seem to believe it. The fact is they do believe what they believe even if you don’t. As Catholics we believe people are what they present themselves to be. In this case, over 14, single, and of the opposite sex. If their beliefs would not allow them to sign a marriage license for an adult to marry an eight year old, or two people of the same sex, so be it.

Personally, if I was a clerk, I would give a license to absolutely anyone who walked in the door, because the Supreme Court struck down any government definition of marriage in law, so anyone should legally be able to marry anyone; children, already married, same-sex, siblings, or parents. And as a Catholic, I know that giving them a marriage license doesn’t make them married.

No it is not hypocritical to single out same sex couples, anymore than it is to single out adults who want to marry children. They know by looking at them that they do not meet their definition of marriage and after that we just trust they are who they say they are.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Your OP asked about “clerks who refused” not Catholic clerks who refused.

Actually, it was “Christian clerks.” So, if I ask about what Catholics would do, doesn’t that fall under Christian clerks?

As Todd977 pointed out, many Christians accept divorce and remarriage; including you.

Wrong assumption. I believe my second marriage was outside the Word of God. I had bad dreams throughout the short second marriage. In my dreams, I felt I had betrayed my first husband.

Personally, if I was a clerk, I would give a license to absolutely anyone who walked in the door, because the Supreme Court struck down any government definition of marriage in law, so anyone should legally be able to marry anyone; children, already married, same-sex, siblings, or parents. And as a Catholic, I know that giving them a marriage license doesn’t make them married.

I agree.

Yes, it has everything to do with assuming the best in people, as LilyM pointed out in her post. We assume the best in people every Sunday when they present themselves for communion. We assume they are what they claim to be.

O.K. I get it. We are to assume the best in people; but saying you assume the best in people, and trust they are who they say they are, doesn’t answer these questions:

**Regarding same gender marriage, Kim Davis said, it’s “a Heaven or Hell decision.” Link: huffingtonpost.com/entry/…b0b7a9633a726b

1. Are there no “Heaven or Hell decisions” at stake in marriages among heterosexuals?
2. If a person, such as Kim Davis, is willing to go to jail, rather then have her name on on a marriage license she considers to be “against God’s Law,” why is she not concerned about heterosexual marriages (her own included)? **

No it is not hypocritical to single out same sex couples, anymore than it is to single out adults who want to marry children. They know by looking at them that they do not meet their definition of marriage and after that we just trust they are who they say they are.

When did I say “it is hypocritical to single out same sex couples”?

This thread is not about whether or not a same gender marriage is valid or right, and it certainly isn’t about adults wanting to marry children.

Your response was just saying why they shouldn’t believe what they believe, but you don’t seem to believe it. The fact is they do believe what they believe even if you don’t.

Where did I say that anyone shouldn’t believe what they believe?

Why would you say, “you don’t seem to believe it”? Are you taking about my beliefs on same gender marriage? I haven’t said anything about my beliefs regarding same gender marriage. Do you think only those who support same gender marriage can raise the question in the OP?

What happened to assuming the best in people?

**
**

 

[Stephen168]

Actually, it was “Christian clerks.” So, if I ask about what Catholics would do, doesn’t that fall under Christian clerks?

Catholic is a subset of all Christians and As Todd977 pointed out, many Christians accept divorce and remarriage.

O.K. I get it. We are to assume the best in people; but saying you assume the best in people, and trust they are who they say they are, doesn’t answer these questions:

Are Christian clerks giving heterosexual couples a free pass, when it comes to issuing marriage licenses?

This thread is not about whether or not a same gender marriage is valid or right, and it certainly isn’t about adults wanting to marry children.

Your question is based on whether a couple can have a valid marriage, which would include same-sex couples and marrying children according to the beliefs of a county clerk. And based on those beliefs are opposite sex couples getting a pass. When a couple walks into a clerk’s office the clerk will assume the couple are who/what they claim to be unless they are clearly not. Same-sex couples are clearly not opposite sex couples and a child is clearly not an adult.
To qualify for a government death certificate, one must be dead. If a clerk refused to give a living person a death certificate, I would not assume that dead people are “getting a pass.”

Where did I say that anyone shouldn’t believe what they believe?

Your post #8 and by asking the question:

1. If a person, such as Kim Davis, is willing to go to jail, rather then have her name on on a marriage license she considers to be “against God’s Law,” why is she not concerned about heterosexual marriages (her own included)?

You are requiring Kim Davis to hold a set of beliefs.

Why would you say, “you don’t seem to believe it”?

Your post #1

Are you taking about my beliefs on same gender marriage?

No.

 

[LilyM]

Hi LilyM,
Thanks for posting your comments.

I agree that we are “to be charitable and presume innocence in doubtful cases.”

I think the key word here is “investigation.” The Catholic Church does actually investigate. The Catholic Church does not make decisions about marriage “unknowingly.”

Anna

So where, for a Catholic who is clear on Church teaching, is the room for doubt in the case of SSM? There is no doubt, there is clear wrong and sin. Charity, as in care for the souls and not just the feelings, of others, demands that we not condone sin, where itis certain that sin exists.

 

[Anna_Scott]

So where, for a Catholic who is clear on Church teaching, is the room for doubt in the case of SSM? There is no doubt, there is clear wrong and sin.

LilyM,
I’m not arguing for SSM. That is not the point of this thread.

Charity, as in care for the souls and not just the feelings, of others, demands that we not condone sin, where itis certain that sin exists.

O.K. Would that apply to heterosexual couples, if it is “certain that sin exists?”

 

[Seekerjn316]

So where, for a Catholic who is clear on Church teaching, is the room for doubt in the case of SSM? There is no doubt, there is clear wrong and sin. Charity, as in care for the souls and not just the feelings, of others, demands that we not condone sin, where itis certain that sin exists.

Please explain how verifying each couple meets the legal requirements for this civil marriage have been met. If the couple has met the legal requirements to be civilly married, their license is stamped by the clerk reviewing their license and determining that the law is satisfied all necessary requirements demanded by the State have been met…how is that condoning sin? Sin isn’t part of the legal process…how is it “Condoning”?

 

[Anna_Scott]

When did I say “it is hypocritical to single out same sex couples”?

. . . .So, just how far should a clerk go in standing up for Christian beliefs? If a clerk is going to refuse to issue a license to a couple on the basis of what the clerk believes to be sin; isn’t it hypocritical to single out same gender couples? Aren’t these same clerks issuing a license to any heterosexual couple without question? . . . .

I’m asking questions, hoping this thread will help with some answers. I wouldn’t say it’s going all that well.

I appreciate all your comments, even the frustrating ones. Frustrating comments and questions can be good. At least they challenge us.

Peace and blessings,

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna Scott Post #22: Where did I say that anyone shouldn’t believe what they believe?

Stephen168 Post #23: Your post #8 and by asking the question: Anna Scott Post #13] 2. If a person, such as Kim Davis, is willing to go to jail, rather then have her name on on a marriage license she considers to be “against God’s Law,” why is she not concerned about heterosexual marriages (her own included)?

Todd,

I asked questions in post #8. I never said, “anyone shouldn’t believe what they believe.” I never said that in any post.

I asked the question based on what Kim Davis actually said she believed.

If she doesn’t want her name on a marriage license she considers to be “against God’s Law,” why is she not concerned about heterosexual marriages? Doesn’t God’s Law apply to everyone? I think these are valid questions.

I could be falsely assuming that Kim Davis is not concerned about heterosexual marriages and whether or not they go against “God’s Law.” I just haven’t seen anything in the news about her refusing to issue marriage licenses to heterosexual couples; or any other clerk refusing, for that matter. If anyone knows of any cases, please let me know.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Your question is based on whether a couple can have a valid marriage, which would include same-sex couples and marrying children according to the beliefs of a county clerk. And based on those beliefs are opposite sex couples getting a pass. . . . .

You got all that from, Are Christian clerks giving heterosexual couples a free pass, when it comes to issuing marriage licenses?

There are a lot of assumptions going on in your assessment of the OP question. Guess we can add them to the false assumptions you made about my beliefs.

Anna

 

[Stephen168]

Are you taking about my beliefs on same gender marriage?
Stephen168;13395311:

No.

There are a lot of assumptions going on in your assessment of the OP question. Guess we can add them to the false assumptions you made about my beliefs.

You would be adding them to something that doesn’t exist.

Your question is based on whether a couple can have a valid marriage, which would include same-sex couples and marrying children according to the beliefs of a county clerk. And based on those beliefs are opposite sex couples getting a pass.
Anna Scott;13395789:

You got all that from, Are Christian clerks giving heterosexual couples a free pass, when it comes to issuing marriage licenses?

Yes, and without any correction or clarification on your part, I’ll continue to believe that is the salient point of your OP. And I have made my point.

 

[Seekerjn316]

Catholic is a subset of all Christians and As Todd977 pointed out, many Christians accept divorce and remarriage.

Your question is based on whether a couple can have a valid marriage, which would include same-sex couples and marrying children according to the beliefs of a county clerk. And based on those beliefs are opposite sex couples getting a pass. When a couple walks into a clerk’s office the clerk will assume the couple are who/what they claim to be unless they are clearly not. Same-sex couples are clearly not opposite sex couples and a child is clearly not an adult.
To qualify for a government death certificate, one must be dead. If a clerk refused to give a living person a death certificate, I would not assume that dead people are “getting a pass.”
Your post #8 and by asking the question: You are requiring Kim Davis to hold a set of beliefs.
Your post #1
No.

f
The question is not concerning “validity” based on any religious/sacramental understanding…the question asked, "do the couples seeking licenses to get civilly married meet the States requirements of civil marriage.

Validity is not the issue, we’re the States requirements met by the couple to receive the license…if they met the requirements, the clerk stamps the license “States requirements met”…its a yes they have or no they haven’t met the State requirements.

 

[Stephen168]

f
The question is not concerning “validity” based on any religious/sacramental understanding…the question asked, "do the couples seeking licenses to get civilly married meet the States requirements of civil marriage.

Can you point out which post in this thread that question was asked by the OP? Because I don’t think that is the question.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . .Yes, and without any correction or clarification on your part, I’ll continue to believe that is the salient point of your OP. And I have made my point.

What clarification do you want?

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

f
The question is not concerning “validity” based on any religious/sacramental understanding…the question asked, "do the couples seeking licenses to get civilly married meet the States requirements of civil marriage. . . .

Seekerjn,

I appreciate your comments, but Stephen is right. This is not the question of the OP.

 

[Anna_Scott]

You would be adding them to something that doesn’t exist.

Yes, and without any correction or clarification on your part, I’ll continue to believe that is the salient point of your OP. And I have made my point.

Stephen,
If you feel you have made your point, there isn’t much more to say.

You are welcome to have the last word.

Peace and blessings,
Anna

 

[Seekerjn316]

Can you point out which post in this thread that question was asked by the OP? Because I don’t think that is the question.

You are correct, this wasn’t the question. However in order for the OP question to be answered, civil VS religious marriage…many of the posters sought to define civil marriage along the lines of the religious arguments as why clerk’s aren’t stamp g the license…YET for the most part as with Kim four marriages, the “sins” of those wishing to hack a 2nd, 3rd or even 4th marriage, get a pass.
The clerk’s are not being g asked to endorse same sex marriage, just verify that the couple have met the States legal requirements to get civilly married, not endorse, approve, attend, acknowledge in any way but to declare the future couple meet State laws requirements for a civil marriage…not approve, but verify the rules were followed.

The line between the two social constructs is continuously being blurred by requiring it to meet religious standards …BUT ITS NOT A RELIGIOUS MARRIAGE

 

[Stephen168]

You are correct, this wasn’t the question. However in order for the OP question to be answered, civil VS religious marriage…

I’m not sure that is the question either. Until now, I don’t think anyone has divided marriage into two different ideas with the same word attached. I thought we were talking about marriage simply, and whether or not a clerk as considered all they should. But I could be wrong.

 

[Vanny]

FrDavid96 and Jim G answered it for me.

 

[Padres1969]

Are Christian clerks giving heterosexual couples a free pass, when it comes to issuing marriage licenses? Should the clerks even be involved in this? What about separation of Church and State? Is a job, in which you are obligated to uphold the law, the right platform for this?

The line between the two social constructs is continuously being blurred by requiring it to meet religious standards …BUT ITS NOT A RELIGIOUS MARRIAGE

I’m not sure that is the question either. Until now, I don’t think anyone has divided marriage into two different ideas with the same word attached. I thought we were talking about marriage simply, and whether or not a clerk as considered all they should. But I could be wrong.

To answer the OP’s question, the clerk shouldn’t be involved at all in terms of imposing their particular religious beliefs regarding religious marriage on the secular construct of contractual civil marriage. As Seekerjn states, it’s not a religious marriage that the clerk is signing off on, but rather a secular social contract. One that is solely defined by the secular laws of the particular place it is being contracted in. And in this case 2 same-sex parties, 2 divorcees, 2 people of different religions, etc… are all able at the present time to enter into those secular social contracts that we call civil marriage in the US.

This is not something new, marriage socially and religiously has been separate in the US from the beginning due in no small part to our separation of church and state (though that’s been the case in other countries as well even longer). Now at times the two have had the lines blurred between them as the civil marriages were more often than not contracted as part of a religious marriage ceremony. But that’s never always been the case and is definitely no longer the case.

Back to the clerk’s dilemma, frankly I don’t think it should be a dilemma. A clerk signing off on a civil marriage license is not condoning anything in a religious sense. I mean the Catholic Church doesn’t even recognize a civil marriage that is contracted solely outside the church absent action of the church and the two marrying parties to convalidate it.

 

[Stephen168]

…the question asked, "do the couples seeking licenses to get civilly married meet the states requirements of civil marriage.
anna scott;13396671:

seekerjn,

i appreciate your comments, but stephen is right. This is not the question of the op.

are christian clerks giving heterosexual couples a free pass, when it comes to issuing marriage licenses?

to answer the op’s question, the clerk shouldn’t be involved at all in terms of imposing their particular religious beliefs regarding religious marriage on the secular construct of contractual civil marriage.