Are Christianity and Judaism similar to parallel lines that will intersect as they approach infinity?

[meltzerboy]

I once heard a Protestant minister compare free will and predestination to parallel lines that will intersect or converge as they near the point of infinity. I wonder if this may be true of Christianity and Judaism as well. By intersect, I mean that the teachings of these two world religions will merge into one. I realize some Christians already believe they have. What are your thoughts on this topic, which is of course highly speculative and, well, philosophical.

 

[itullian]

I once heard a Protestant minister compare free will and predestination to parallel lines that will intersect or converge as they near the point of infinity. I wonder if this may be true of Christianity and Judaism as well. By intersect, I mean that the teachings of these two world religions will merge into one. I realize some Christians already believe they have. What are your thoughts on this topic, which is of course highly speculative and, well, philosophical.

hi,
i dont think they’ll meld into one but exist like cousins.

i know if i wasn’t catholic i’d be jewish so they’re pretty close.

 

[bzkoss236]

Christian teaching, especially Catholic teaching, is that they are almost the same religion in that Christianity came out of Judaism, but that Christianity is a fulfillment of Jewish prophecies with Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah. So I do not really think they will “merge” necessarily, but I would agree that they are related in a way.

 

[JohnJFarren]

“FATHER, I PRAY THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE
AS WE ARE ONE [in the Trinity] …
THAT THEY MAY BE BROUGHT TO PERFECTION AS ONE” John 16:20,22-23
Hello Meltzerboy – 10 Aug 2012
Judaism and Christianity are very intimately related, connected. I, a Christian, understand Judaism to be my parent. God chose to become a real human being forever from the Jewish race … Jesus Christ, a Jew and the founder of Christianity.

I see Judaism and Christianity as an inter-living being. Christianity is the FULFILLMENT of Judaism.

Meet like converging lines? Much, much stronger. That some Christians persecuted Jews is a horrible thing. Stupid, ignorant, and in some instances downright evil.

I can pray with Jews anytime. I have joined dear friends in a Seder.
John (Allandnothing JohnJFarren)

 

[504Katrin]

Christian teaching, **especially Catholic teaching, is that they are almost the same religion **in that Christianity came out of Judaism, but that Christianity is a fulfillment of Jewish prophecies with Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah. So I do not really think they will “merge” necessarily, but I would agree that they are related in a way.

I find this comment to be very interesting. Would you show us please where the Catholic Church teaches this?

 

[504Katrin]

I once heard a Protestant minister compare free will and predestination to parallel lines that will intersect or converge as they near the point of infinity. I wonder if this may be true of Christianity and Judaism as well. By intersect, I mean that the teachings of these two world religions will merge into one. I realize some Christians already believe they have. What are your thoughts on this topic, which is of course highly speculative and, well, philosophical.

Our religions aren’t like parallel lines imo and they do intersect often

But to your question… If infinity is infinite infinity doesn’t start nor end anywhere. Hence there can’t be a “*point *of infinity”. So how could parallel lines ever meet at a “point of infinity”?

 

[meltzerboy]

Our religions aren’t like parallel lines imo and they do intersect often

But to your question… If infinity is infinite infinity doesn’t start nor end anywhere. Hence there can’t be a “*point *of infinity”. So how could parallel lines ever meet at a “point of infinity”?

Ah, you mathematical philosophers. I think you have a good POINT! It’s more of an optical illusion perhaps, such as when one looks at parallel railroad tracks as they appear almost to converge in the remote distance. Theoretically, they could touch at infinity.

 

[504Katrin]

Ah, you mathematical philosophers. I think you have a good POINT! It’s more of an optical illusion perhaps, such as when one looks at parallel railroad tracks as they appear almost to converge in the remote distance. Theoretically, they could touch at infinity.

Railroads are a good example.
So, can we conclude that whether we watch our religions meet at infinity or not literally depends on our POINT of view?

From the distance our religions look similar, but the closer you examine them the more you find how much they differ from another. From the distance our religions look like as if they were intersecting somewhere. But if we lets say walked these railroads in order to examine that intersection we would never get there. Quite the contrary, we would have to be so far away from that intersection - as a matter of fact infinitely far away, to be able to seemingly watch them intersect.

Except for railroads there’s another example for parallel lines that I would like to use. If we watch concentric circles - that are parallel lines also - that a drop of water causes, and rewind those concentric circles, they will go back to the middle closer and closer to where the waterdrop fell, and become one the moment the waterdrop fell and met the water surface. Even though the circles go different paths, they’re are all made out of water, and they all have the same origin, as it’s the drop that created them. As a matter of fact, we’re all a PART of the drop.

What is infinity, and where would both railroads intersect?
G-d himself is infinite, and it’s in Him where both of our religions do intersect and merge.

 

[mercytruth]

I once heard a Protestant minister compare free will and predestination to parallel lines that will intersect or converge as they near the point of infinity. I wonder if this may be true of Christianity and Judaism as well. By intersect, I mean that the teachings of these two world religions will merge into one. I realize some Christians already believe they have. What are your thoughts on this topic, which is of course highly speculative and, well, philosophical.

Well yes.

When the LORD restores Israel. (Acts 1:6)

When the glory of the Eternal One is manifested as it was in the days of Moses, and in the days of King Solomon.

**Some of those who followed him came up intending to mark the path, but they could not find it. When Jeremiah heard of this, he reproved them: "The place is to remain unknown until God gathers his people together again and shows them mercy.

Then the Lord will disclose these things, and the glory of the Lord will be seen in the cloud, just as it appeared in the time of Moses and when Solomon prayed that the Place might be gloriously sanctified." ** (2 Macabbes 2:6-8)

When the glory of the LORD will be over Zion:

And the LORD will create over the whole habitation of mount Zion, and over her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for over all the glory shall be spread a canopy. (Isaiah 4:6)

When all the nations of the earth will come up to Jerusalem to keep the feast of Succoth.

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles (Zechariah 14:6).

When the true Tzaddik reigns:

Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The Lord is our righteousness.’ (Jeremiah 23:5-6)

G-d’s peace

Micah

 

[chosen_people]

Well yes.

When the LORD restores Israel. (Acts 1:6)

When the glory of the Eternal One is manifested as it was in the days of Moses, and in the days of King Solomon.

**Some of those who followed him came up intending to mark the path, but they could not find it. When Jeremiah heard of this, he reproved them: "The place is to remain unknown until God gathers his people together again and shows them mercy.

Then the Lord will disclose these things, and the glory of the Lord will be seen in the cloud, just as it appeared in the time of Moses and when Solomon prayed that the Place might be gloriously sanctified." ** (2 Macabbes 2:6-8)

When the glory of the LORD will be over Zion:

And the LORD will create over the whole habitation of mount Zion, and over her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day, and the shining of a flaming fire by night: for over all the glory shall be spread a canopy. (Isaiah 4:6)

When all the nations of the earth will come up to Jerusalem to keep the feast of Succoth.

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles (Zechariah 14:6).

When the true Tzaddik reigns:

Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: ‘The Lord is our righteousness.’ (Jeremiah 23:5-6)

G-d’s peace

Micah

1. The Torah and the prophets make clear that God will always preserve a faithful remnant of the Jewish people and that the covenant between God and the Jewish people is permanent; Genesis 17:17;Leviticus 26:44,45;Deuteronomy 4:27;7:6-9;Isaiah 54:10,17;59:21;Jeremiah 46:27-28;Malachi 3:6
2. The commandments of the Torah are Eternal:
   Genesis 17:9-10;Exodus 31:16;Deuteronomy 11:1;Deuteronomy 28:46;Deuteronomy 29:28;Psalm 111:7-9;2 Kings 17:37;Ezekiel 37:24-25;Malachi 3:22

3)The Torah will be in effect in the Messianic Age:
Ezekiel 37:25;Isaiah 2:3

God’s Torah is perfect:
Psalm 19:8-10

The Laws of the Torah may not be increased or decreased:
Deuteronomy 4:2;Deuteronomy 13:1 [12:32 in Christian bibles]

God will not change His mind:
Numbers 23:19-20;1 Samuel 15:29

The Jewish prophets have explicitly stated, in the Messianic Era, Gentiles will stop being blinded to the truth and realize they have inherited falsehood:

"Hashem (God) my Strength, my Stronghold and my Refuge on the day of distress! To You (God) nations will come from the ends of the earth and say: "It was all falsehood that our ancestors inherited, futility that has no purpose. Can a man make gods for himself - they are not gods! (Jeremiah 16:19-20)
יט יְהוָה עֻזִּי וּמָעֻזִּי, וּמְנוּסִי–בְּיוֹם צָרָה; אֵלֶיךָ, גּוֹיִם יָבֹאוּ מֵאַפְסֵי-אָרֶץ, וְיֹאמְרוּ אַךְ-שֶׁקֶר נָחֲלוּ אֲבוֹתֵינוּ, הֶבֶל וְאֵין-בָּם מוֹעִיל.
כ הֲיַעֲשֶׂה-לּוֹ אָדָם, אֱלֹהִים; וְהֵמָּה, לֹא אֱלֹהִים.

{In the Messianic Era} “Nations will walk by your [the Jewish People’s] light and kings by the brilliance of your shine” Isaiah 60:3
וְהָלְכוּ גוֹיִם, לְאוֹרֵךְ; וּמְלָכִים, לְנֹגַהּ זַרְחֵךְ.

"I will set you [the Jewish People] for a covenant to the people, for a light to the nations, to open blind eyes [in the Messianic Age] Isaiah 42:6-7
וְאֶתֶּנְךָ לִבְרִית עָם–לְאוֹר גּוֹיִם.
לִפְקֹחַ, עֵינַיִם עִוְרוֹת

The sixth Messianic criterion is that the Messiah ben David will bring knowledge of the Jewish God to to the world (see Isaiah 11:9; 40:5; Zephaniah 3:9 ; Jeremiah 31:33).

 

[mercytruth]

1. The Torah and the prophets make clear that God will always preserve a faithful remnant of the Jewish people and that the covenant between God and the Jewish people is permanent; Genesis 17:17;Leviticus 26:44,45;Deuteronomy 4:27;7:6-9;Isaiah 54:10,17;59:21;Jeremiah 46:27-28;Malachi 3:6
2. The commandments of the Torah are Eternal:
   Genesis 17:9-10;Exodus 31:16;Deuteronomy 11:1;Deuteronomy 28:46;Deuteronomy 29:28;Psalm 111:7-9;2 Kings 17:37;Ezekiel 37:24-25;Malachi 3:22

3)The Torah will be in effect in the Messianic Age:
Ezekiel 37:25;Isaiah 2:3

God’s Torah is perfect:
Psalm 19:8-10

The Laws of the Torah may not be increased or decreased:
Deuteronomy 4:2;Deuteronomy 13:1 [12:32 in Christian bibles]

God will not change His mind:
Numbers 23:19-20;1 Samuel 15:29

The Jewish prophets have explicitly stated, in the Messianic Era, Gentiles will stop being blinded to the truth and realize they have inherited falsehood:

"Hashem (God) my Strength, my Stronghold and my Refuge on the day of distress! To You (God) nations will come from the ends of the earth and say: "It was all falsehood that our ancestors inherited, futility that has no purpose. Can a man make gods for himself - they are not gods! (Jeremiah 16:19-20)
יט יְהוָה עֻזִּי וּמָעֻזִּי, וּמְנוּסִי–בְּיוֹם צָרָה; אֵלֶיךָ, גּוֹיִם יָבֹאוּ מֵאַפְסֵי-אָרֶץ, וְיֹאמְרוּ אַךְ-שֶׁקֶר נָחֲלוּ אֲבוֹתֵינוּ, הֶבֶל וְאֵין-בָּם מוֹעִיל.
כ הֲיַעֲשֶׂה-לּוֹ אָדָם, אֱלֹהִים; וְהֵמָּה, לֹא אֱלֹהִים.

{In the Messianic Era} “Nations will walk by your [the Jewish People’s] light and kings by the brilliance of your shine” Isaiah 60:3
וְהָלְכוּ גוֹיִם, לְאוֹרֵךְ; וּמְלָכִים, לְנֹגַהּ זַרְחֵךְ.

"I will set you [the Jewish People] for a covenant to the people, for a light to the nations, to open blind eyes [in the Messianic Age] Isaiah 42:6-7
וְאֶתֶּנְךָ לִבְרִית עָם–לְאוֹר גּוֹיִם.
לִפְקֹחַ, עֵינַיִם עִוְרוֹת

The sixth Messianic criterion is that the Messiah ben David will bring knowledge of the Jewish God to to the world (see Isaiah 11:9; 40:5; Zephaniah 3:9 ; Jeremiah 31:33).

Yes, in the Messianic era both Jews and non-Jews will realize that the **LORD is our Righteousness **and he is the Messiah, and he will restore Israel as G-d intends it to be restored and not as secular Zionists intend it. (Jeremiah 23:5-6)

Shalom

Micah

 

[meltzerboy]

1. The Torah and the prophets make clear that God will always preserve a faithful remnant of the Jewish people and that the covenant between God and the Jewish people is permanent; Genesis 17:17;Leviticus 26:44,45;Deuteronomy 4:27;7:6-9;Isaiah 54:10,17;59:21;Jeremiah 46:27-28;Malachi 3:6
2. The commandments of the Torah are Eternal:
   Genesis 17:9-10;Exodus 31:16;Deuteronomy 11:1;Deuteronomy 28:46;Deuteronomy 29:28;Psalm 111:7-9;2 Kings 17:37;Ezekiel 37:24-25;Malachi 3:22

3)The Torah will be in effect in the Messianic Age:
Ezekiel 37:25;Isaiah 2:3

God’s Torah is perfect:
Psalm 19:8-10

The Laws of the Torah may not be increased or decreased:
Deuteronomy 4:2;Deuteronomy 13:1 [12:32 in Christian bibles]

God will not change His mind:
Numbers 23:19-20;1 Samuel 15:29

The Jewish prophets have explicitly stated, in the Messianic Era, Gentiles will stop being blinded to the truth and realize they have inherited falsehood:

"Hashem (God) my Strength, my Stronghold and my Refuge on the day of distress! To You (God) nations will come from the ends of the earth and say: "It was all falsehood that our ancestors inherited, futility that has no purpose. Can a man make gods for himself - they are not gods! (Jeremiah 16:19-20)
יט יְהוָה עֻזִּי וּמָעֻזִּי, וּמְנוּסִי–בְּיוֹם צָרָה; אֵלֶיךָ, גּוֹיִם יָבֹאוּ מֵאַפְסֵי-אָרֶץ, וְיֹאמְרוּ אַךְ-שֶׁקֶר נָחֲלוּ אֲבוֹתֵינוּ, הֶבֶל וְאֵין-בָּם מוֹעִיל.
כ הֲיַעֲשֶׂה-לּוֹ אָדָם, אֱלֹהִים; וְהֵמָּה, לֹא אֱלֹהִים.

{In the Messianic Era} “Nations will walk by your [the Jewish People’s] light and kings by the brilliance of your shine” Isaiah 60:3
וְהָלְכוּ גוֹיִם, לְאוֹרֵךְ; וּמְלָכִים, לְנֹגַהּ זַרְחֵךְ.

"I will set you [the Jewish People] for a covenant to the people, for a light to the nations, to open blind eyes [in the Messianic Age] Isaiah 42:6-7
וְאֶתֶּנְךָ לִבְרִית עָם–לְאוֹר גּוֹיִם.
לִפְקֹחַ, עֵינַיִם עִוְרוֹת

The sixth Messianic criterion is that the Messiah ben David will bring knowledge of the Jewish God to to the world (see Isaiah 11:9; 40:5; Zephaniah 3:9 ; Jeremiah 31:33).

Chosen people, as a Jew of course I agree with all of this; however, I think mercytruth was also agreeing with it, insofar as a faithful Christian can. For sure, Jews and Christians have different interpretations of what the Eternal Covenant means, but these interpretations are not polar opposites.

 

[KindredSoul]

1. The Torah and the prophets make clear that God will always preserve a faithful remnant of the Jewish people and that the covenant between God and the Jewish people is permanent;

1. This is true. However, there does seem to be room for difference on how, exactly, that covenant will take shape from one age to the next. For the last 2000 years, for example, God obviously hasn’t expected practicing Jews to make animal sacrifice, because there has been no Temple. Unless we believe God expects more of His people than they can actually do, then we must believe that the exact nature of how the people are to fulfill their end of the Covenant can clearly depend on context… If this is true with material contexts (such as there being no Temple, now) then how much more true could it conceivably be in spiritual contexts? Such as if the Messiah had already come… (I know that you said that the Law would still be in place after the Messiah’s coming…more on that later)

1. The commandments of the Torah are Eternal:

1. Some of these do indeed appear to be specific references to the Torah. Others, as translation attests, are using the word in a sense that is rather open to interpretation. To Jewish ears, the word “Torah” means THE Torah, the Law given to Moses. To Christian ears, when something such as “Observe my Law always” is found in Scripture, it could possibly mean in the general sense. For example, I might tell someone “Always obey the American Law.” Well, the American Law might have different contexts, different scenarios, such that following the American Law in 1950 would have involved different actions than in 2012. If someone had lived all that time, they would be doing different things, but they would still be adhering to the command to “always follow the American Law.” I know that here the question of “God doesn’t change His mind” will be raised, but I’ll get to that later.

3)The Torah will be in effect in the Messianic Age:

1. As with #2, the words here can be interpreted in various way. In my Bible, the words are translated as “Statutes”, etc., and neither verse explicitly says “The Law of Moses.” Yes, Jews of the time would have automatically interpretted it that way, but the possibility remains that such prophecies could have a double meaning, especially when they do not take great care to make such ambiguous interpretations impossible. So one interpretation (although I know, of course, you disagree) could say that this wasn’t strictly speaking of the Mosaic Law (or at least not only of the Mosaic Law).

But even besides that, consider: The Torah requires a sacrifice of Atonement each year…yet if Jews look forward–as some do, though maybe you do not–to a perfect Messianic age, that would be superfluous, for there would be no sin for which to atone. This is one more example of how supernatural and natural changes/contexts could change the nature of what it means to “observe the Law” of God…

God’s Torah is perfect:

1. As above, this never explicitly says “the Law God gave to Moses.” In fact, Jews of that time, along with Jews now, have not tended to expect Gentiles to keep every single Law (such as ritual laws, etc.) that Jews do, proving that even within Judaism it is thought that God’s “statutes” and “precepts” can extend beyond the Jewish Torah, for He has–in the Old Testament period–one set of precepts for Jews and another, infinitely less complex set for Gentiles…is this not true? Yet would we say that only one of these Laws is perfect? That God is capable of making an imperfect Law that He expects the Gentiles to live by, while giving a perfect one only to the Jews?

The Laws of the Torah may not be increased or decreased:

1. While this almost definitely is speaking of the Mosaic Law, it says “you shall not add or subtract.” It never says anything about whether God would ever be able to (I know you said “God will not change His mind,” and, again, I’m going to get to that…on the next point, in fact). So in theory, it is possible that, after a certain event (such as, in Christian theology, the first coming of the Messiah) there might be certain changes in what God expects, because He added them, even though “you” are commanded not to.

God will not change His mind:

1. This is true. However, God created the entire universe, both space and time. For a Law to change in its particulars does not, therefore, require God to “change His mind.” It only requires that, from the very beginning, He had planned for that change to take place at some point. If, from the dawn of Creation, God had intended the exact form of the Law to change or transform (say, with the coming of Christ), then this change doesn’t represent a change in God’s mind, it just represents the next phase in a plan God always had in mind…

The Jewish prophets have explicitly stated, in the Messianic Era, Gentiles will stop being blinded to the truth and realize they have inherited falsehood:

…

The sixth Messianic criterion is that the Messiah ben David will bring knowledge of the Jewish God to to the world (see Isaiah 11:9; 40:5; Zephaniah 3:9 ; Jeremiah 31:33).

1. This is true. From the Christian perspective, this has been done through Christ, Who, insofar as His Humanity was Jewish, is sort of a focal point through which all of Israel has a role in bringing Gentiles to God. And Christianity has made great strides in that. Christians believe this has been a more gradual process (for us, the Second Coming will be the more instantaneous change), but indeed, through Christianity a vast, innumerable sea of Gentiles have come to worship the same God as the Jews, which we would see as gradually fulfilling that prophecy (I know you may disagree on its being the same exact God, but we Christians obviously believe so, and my point here is to explain our point of view).

Now, I’m not under any illusion that anything here would change your point of view. I respond only to try to help you see where we Christians are coming from, to show that we do not hold our views out of ignorance of the Scriptures or implications you pointed out. We know that you disagree. But we have not simply ignored the Old Testament or failed to notice parts of it. We are aware of it, and yet we simply understand these things in a way that does not invalidate our own beliefs…

Actually, a much more challenging conundrum for Christians, when it comes to the Torah, is in our own New Testament, where Christ says that “not one Jot” will pass away from the Law even though Heaven and Earth pass away. I have some theories on this, myself, but with one of them I would have to know something first, so I will ask you or meltzerboy. Please do not take the following as a confrontational challenge…it’s an honest question. What do Jews make of the more “controversial” commands of the Torah? Such as putting people to death for non-murderous crimes, or stoning a child for being overly rebellious, etc.? Was this never intended to be taken literally? If they were, then would this mean that, if Israel could be restored as a religious state, those Laws should be enacted again down to this very day? What are your thoughts…?

…Again, I’m not being snide; why would I? After all, the problem I just raised would be as much our problem as yours, because if it ever was to be taken literally, it would still–even for Christians–mean that at least at one time God expected such things, which at the very least means it would make no sense to mock it… So I would like to take this opportunity to find out what an actual Jewish practicioner makes of these. Thanks in advance!

Blessings in Christ,
KindredSoul

 

[mercytruth]

**A major difference that I have with Catholic teaching is that I disagree with them on their non-teaching of the millenium of Jesus Christ over the earth. I believe what most of the early church fathers believed regarding Chiliasm.

Bishop Papias, Barnabas, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Bishop Irenaeus, Tertullian, Bishop Methodius, Lactantius and others believed in a literal reign of Messiah in the restoration of Jerusalem and of creation.
newadvent.org/cathen/10307a.htm

From the perspective of the apostles of Jesus Christ, they were expecting the restoration of Israel to the kingdom. When they asked the resurrected Jesus Christ if he was going to restore Israel to the kingdom at this time, Jesus responded, “it is not for you to know, the time and seasons, for they are according to the authority of the Father in heaven”
(Acts 1:6).

When we deny the restoration of a literal Israel, we are denying a great deal of prophetic scripture regarding the people of Israel. Since I do not deny this, I believe that we as non-Jews and Jews will become ‘one’ during this time.

Of course, our major difference lies in identifying the Messiah described in Jeremiah 23:5-6 Is the Messiah who is called the LORD our Righteousness, Jesus Christ? or the future Messiah of Judaism?

God’s peace

Micah**