Are Christians still 'technically' under the Torah?

  • Thread starter Thread starter RiderOnTheClouds
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
R

RiderOnTheClouds

Guest
My thoughts are that Christ and Paul (also Rabbi Hillel) viewed the core of the law as loving thy neighbour. Beyond that, no burdensome commandments are required. In that sense, the Torah should be followed, but only in the sense of it’s true meaning, rather than every minute detail. One of the reasons why I stopped following the Noahide laws was that I realised Orthodox Judaism wasn’t truly following the Torah in this sense.
 
Last edited:
In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus ratifies the Torah, but reinterprets it to emphasize interiority, the proper inward dispositions or attitudes. Indeed, sin is evil behavior—the adultery and the murder; but sin is also the evil attitude—the lust and the anger, that precedes and propels behavior.

Matthew tells us that Jesus affirms the Torah of Moses and that “whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven” (5:19).

Paul rejects the Torah as a means of justification, “We . . . may be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law because by works of the law no one will be justified” (Gal. 2:16). Some of Paul’s radical followers were pushing Paul’s gospel of freedom from Torah to a virtual antinomianism: “All things are lawful for me” (1 Cor. 6:12) (300). Matthew, exerting a strong influence on the church, acts as a moderating force on this radical element. Matthew answers his opposition by insisting on the validity of the Law, but in a Christian way relegates Paul’s followers, those who are not up to keeping the Law, those who break the Law, to “being called the least in the kingdom” rather than condemning them to suffer eternal damnation (5:19).

In “Matthew,” as far as modern Christians are concerned, Paul won the argument. Moderate Pauline theology did not deny the universal applicability of moral law and found them in the Torah. Neither Matthew nor Paul teaches that rejection of Torah as an ultimate norm for righteousness entailed its rejection as a moral guide. Moreover, today no major Christian church requires observance of all 613 precepts of the Old Testament law, ethical and ceremonial, but only the ethical commands such as the Decalogue and command to love God and neighbor.
 
The majority of Christians - Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant - have historically differentiated between the “ceremonial” and “moral” (or “ethical”) decrees and commandments in the OT.

Christians are not obligated to the follow the former whilst the latter are still binding.

With that in mind most Christians theologians would consider Christians being broadly under the OT, particularly in God’s covenant with Abraham, through whom “all families of the earth will be blessed” (Gen 12:3). Theologians affirm that “all of the families of the earth” pertain to Gentiles.
 
RiderOnTheClouds said:
In that sense, the Torah should be followed, but only in the sense of it’s true meaning, rather than every minute detail.
Click to expand...
I understood Christ & Paul to teach that the Law identified sin. Acknowledge our weaknesses. Repent. Surrender all to Christ.

True holiness is from within, from God.
 
RiderOnTheClouds said:
One of the reasons why I stopped following the Noahide laws
Click to expand...
Which of the Noahide laws have you stopped following?

There is no single list of the seven Noahide laws on which all strands of Judaism would agree in every detail, but the usual list looks something like this: The “sons of Noah” (i.e. everyone, not just Jews) must not practice idolatry, blasphemy, murder, sexual immorality, or robbery; they must not eat flesh cut from a living animal; and they must establish a system of justice.
 
RiderOnTheClouds said:
My thoughts are that Christ and Paul (also Rabbi Hillel) viewed the core of the law as loving thy neighbour. Beyond that, no burdensome commandments are required. In that sense, the Torah should be followed, but only in the sense of it’s true meaning, rather than every minute detail. One of the reasons why I stopped following the Noahide laws was that I realised Orthodox Judaism wasn’t truly following the Torah in this sense.
Click to expand...
121 The Old Testament is an indispensable part of Sacred Scripture. Its books are divinely inspired and retain a permanent value, for the Old Covenant has never been revoked.

1962 The Old Law is the first stage of revealed Law. Its moral prescriptions are summed up in the Ten Commandments. The precepts of the Decalogue lay the foundations for the vocation of man fashioned in the image of God; they prohibit what is contrary to the love of God and neighbor and prescribe what is essential to it. The Decalogue is a light offered to the conscience of every man to make God’s call and ways known to him and to protect him against evil:

God wrote on the tables of the Law what men did not read in their hearts.13

2068 The Council of Trent teaches that the Ten Commandments are obligatory for Christians and that the justified man is still bound to keep them; the Second Vatican Council confirms: "The bishops, successors of the apostles, receive from the Lord . . . the mission of teaching all peoples, and of preaching the Gospel to every creature, so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments."

Under the New Covenant we receive the power to fulfill the Law by love, enabled by the Holy Spirit. In the same vein, the Old Covenant was made obsolete by a new and better covenant (Heb 8), a covenant which could finally accomplish what the old one could not.
 
Last edited:
RiderOnTheClouds said:
My thoughts are that Christ and Paul (also Rabbi Hillel) viewed the core of the law as loving thy neighbour. Beyond that, no burdensome commandments are required. In that sense, the Torah should be followed, but only in the sense of it’s true meaning, rather than every minute detail. One of the reasons why I stopped following the Noahide laws was that I realised Orthodox Judaism wasn’t truly following the Torah in this sense.
Click to expand...
Firstly it is interesting you call yourself riderontheclouds, In the Old Testament, pagan peoples were always claiming their gods were riding the clouds. This activity was reserved for gods.
The Jewish have a prayer called the Shema they have been praying for centuries. Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and strength and love your neighbor as yourself.
There are over 600 commandments in the Torah. We follow the most important 10.

I am not conversant with what Noahide Laws you are referring to, can you post a link.
God gave Moses the law. God made a Covenant with Noah regarding never destroying life with flood again.
 
When Jesus spent his time on Earth, he would have lived by the greatest commandments, he could do nothing greater. But how did Jesus love all his neighbours as he loves himself? How did Jesus look at the man who was nailing him to the cross and love him as he loves himself?

We know that Jesus forgave on the cross; but loving someone as you love yourself seems so far above just forgiving them. All the law of God hangs and depends on the greatest commandments.
 
Schema is “love the Lord your God with your whole heart soul and strength. Take to heart these words that I enjoin on you this day. Drill them into you children. …”
The love your neighbor as yourself part was give by Jesus just after the introductory phrase. It may be OT also, I would have to look
 
The commandment to “love they neighbour” was not in fact new, and can also be found in the Torah (Leviticus 19:18).
 
Evan said:
Schema is “love the Lord your God with your whole heart soul and strength. Take to heart these words that I enjoin on you this day. Drill them into you children. …”
The love your neighbor as yourself part was give by Jesus just after the introductory phrase. It may be OT also, I would have to look
Click to expand...
You left out the first part, the wording that gives the Shema it’s name: “Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one God.”
 
Yes, we were discussing the prayer itself, and who added to it 🙂
 
Whoa! As another poster commented, which Noahide laws have you stopped following? Most of them are the basics of Judaism, Christianity, and many other religions. And what exactly do you mean when you say “Orthodox Judaism wasn’t truly following the Torah in this sense”? Orthodox Judaism as a whole or individual Orthodox Jews are not loving their neighbor? The religion as a whole demands love of neighbor as thyself, and by love is meant not some abstract feeling of good will but tangible acts of lovingkindness. Individual Orthodox Jews may falter: this is only human, and Christians also stumble; yet the religion makes clear what the responsibilities of its adherents are
 
Last edited:
Right you are. AND I knew that. 🙁 The Shema, always begins with Shema Israel!
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top