Are few saved?

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It would be worth giving this little sermon a look-see:

olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml.

The saints thesis is that then (as now presumably) the majority of Christian/Catholics are damned. I infer basically that “Few” simply means a minority.

I don’t think is a mean-spirited or judgmental position to take. From what I see (and have seen) many people don’t take God seriously or believe it is deeply incumbent upon them to do his will on this earth.

A commentator says this is a “hidden” teaching of the Church ( based off the opinion of the early church fathers.)

Any thoughts?
 
It would be worth giving this little sermon a look-see:

olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml.

The saints thesis is that then (as now presumably) the majority of Christian/Catholics are damned. I infer basically that “Few” simply means a minority.

I don’t think is a mean-spirited or judgmental position to take. From what I see (and have seen) many people don’t take God seriously or believe it is deeply incumbent upon them to do his will on this earth.

A commentator says this is a “hidden” teaching of the Church ( based off the opinion of the early church fathers.)

Any thoughts?
In the opinion of St.Therese of Child Jesus - “Hell is empty”.

paduard.
 
I think the key is not to let this turn into a reason to despair about the salvation of individual souls, or a reason to look down on others presumed to be damned, or a reason to paint God as eager to damn.

Jesus called damnation the easier path, to be sure, but I doubt He was preaching doom and gloom, but rather encouraging us to fight against that easy path, even to prove Him wrong if it were possible to do so.

The same Scripture that talks about the difficulty of being saved also assures us that God wills all to be saved, and the Church teaches (contrary to the notion of a limited atonement) that God offers all sufficient grace – so even if Jesus was speaking from his certain foreknowledge that fewer are saved than damned, that is a tragedy that God did not will, and every individual soul still has a real chance to be among the saved, dependent solely on their acceptance or rejection of the grace offered.
 
^ Still salvation is not an easy process.

Who knows whether the good saint was right or not? He is correct though in the thought that damnation is very easy and everyone is capable of being damned.

Jesus did not say “Broad is the way and many are they who find it” after all.

On a different note, I think that if Jesus were to return to earth he would be treated much the same way as he was in old Judea
 
It would be worth giving this little sermon a look-see:

olrl.org/snt_docs/fewness.shtml.

The saints thesis is that then (as now presumably) the majority of Christian/Catholics are damned. I infer basically that “Few” simply means a minority.

I don’t think is a mean-spirited or judgmental position to take. From what I see (and have seen) many people don’t take God seriously or believe it is deeply incumbent upon them to do his will on this earth.

A commentator says this is a “hidden” teaching of the Church ( based off the opinion of the early church fathers.)

Any thoughts?
Sometimes I think this is the biggest or one of the biggest shifts in focus from the early Church to modern times. This idea that no one goes to hell. To me it just spells trouble. That said, I do have a hard time envisioning anyone in hell - burning in eternal flames that is. Once you define hell as despair, isolation, absence of God, good, love - I see hell everywhere, lots of people in it, past, present, future, eternity. (there is this passage in Teresa of Avila about a cupboard) The question should be: do we believe that sin isolates a soul from God. Does God forgive the repentant, the unrepentant, the unbeliever? Blithely assuring ourselves the answer is yes to all above is weird. Just leave the answer to this question to God and follow the Gospel; and don’t transform it and/or God to fit your needs, desires, weaknesses. (and call it mercy for the sick) My point being, this is where ‘universalism’ goes. What’s more saying this does not make one a ‘meanie.’ We are getting to the point - within the Church - where it is tacitly ok to reject the Gospels, Christ. Even preferred as superior ‘morality.’
 
There is risk here either way, the risk to make people think getting to heaven is easy and everyone goes there and the risk of denying God’s Divine Mercy.

I believe if you follow in Christ’s footsteps of forgiveness for everyone, and holding people accountable to “go and sin no more” then you are in a good place. After that, leave it up to God to figure out who goes where…
 
Sometimes I think this is the biggest or one of the biggest shifts in focus from the early Church to modern times. This idea that no one goes to hell. To me it just spells trouble. That said, I do have a hard time envisioning anyone in hell - burning in eternal flames that is. Once you define hell as despair, isolation, absence of God, good, love - I see hell everywhere, lots of people in it, past, present, future, eternity. (there is this passage in Teresa of Avila about a cupboard) The question should be: do we believe that sin isolates a soul from God. Does God forgive the repentant, the unrepentant, the unbeliever? Blithely assuring ourselves the answer is yes to all above is weird. Just leave the answer to this question to God and follow the Gospel; and don’t transform it and/or God to fit your needs, desires, weaknesses. (and call it mercy for the sick) My point being, this is where ‘universalism’ goes. What’s more saying this does not make one a ‘meanie.’ We are getting to the point - within the Church - where it is tacitly ok to reject the Gospels, Christ. Even preferred as superior ‘morality.’
There is an important distinction between true universalism (the belief that no one will be damned, often including even the demons, no matter what) and the more common belief that Hell might be empty of human souls and that is something we should work and hope for. The former is heresy. The second may be deeply unlikely, but it represents the best outcome for “our side” and certainly would be (literally) glorious. The second belief may leave us too comfortable (just as the older notion of a small remnant saved might lead to despair) but it is based on the fact that every individual soul has a real chance to be saved that depends on their own response, and so God would certainly not complain if everyone were saved.
 
^ Still salvation is not an easy process.

On a different note, I think that if Jesus were to return to earth he would be treated much the same way as he was in old Judea
Yeah, I agree. If Jesus was to return, I can envision some Cardinals (rather than Pharisees) scolding Jesus for not going to church on Sunday, that it is an obligation you know. Or, someone saw Jesus eating meat on a Friday during lent… on and on it could go!!!
 
Yeah, I agree. If Jesus was to return, I can envision some Cardinals (rather than Pharisees) scolding Jesus for not going to church on Sunday, that it is an obligation you know. Or, someone saw Jesus eating meat on a Friday during lent… on and on it could go!!!
ROTFL yes because the third commandment doesn’t apply anymore! I’m sure that’s what Jesus was trying to tell us.
 
There is an important distinction between true universalism (the belief that no one will be damned, often including even the demons, no matter what) and the more common belief that Hell might be empty of human souls and that is something we should work and hope for. The former is heresy. The second may be deeply unlikely, but it represents the best outcome for “our side” and certainly would be (literally) glorious. The second belief may leave us too comfortable (just as the older notion of a small remnant saved might lead to despair) but it is based on the fact that every individual soul has a real chance to be saved that depends on their own response, and so God would certainly not complain if everyone were saved.
Good point. I completely agree. Jesus died to save all souls. However, I think deciding this is the case is where we jump the gun a little bit, for fairly obvious reasons. We hope. We work toward that.
 
In the opinion of St.Therese of Child Jesus - “Hell is empty”.

paduard.
I would love to see your source. I’ve read practically everything written by her and have never, ever seen this alleged quote. Back to the OP. Many of the Doctors of the Church, including St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, St. Augustine, Pope St. Gregory the Great and St. John Chrysostom had made statements to the effect that most of mankind would be damned.

Peace, Mark
 
Yeah, I agree. If Jesus was to return, I can envision some Cardinals (rather than Pharisees) scolding Jesus for not going to church on Sunday, that it is an obligation you know. Or, someone saw Jesus eating meat on a Friday during lent… on and on it could go!!!
Couldn’t it just? I think that is about the last thing we need right now. Especially if we want to save everyone. Recipe for disaster. We’re way too sick for that.
Matthew 19:1-12
19 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these sayings, he departed from Galilee, and came into the coasts of Judaea beyond Jordan;
2 And great multitudes followed him; and he healed them there.
3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother’s womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
(we are actually getting to the point where the better Christian you are…the less you know about the Gospel - the new faithful)
 
Even if the Church fathers were and are correct, it doesn’t lead me to despair necessarily.

It just makes me appreciate the true gift of salvation and makes me realize that it is far from guaranteed. Look at the way the majority of people live.

Im not talking necessarily about not going to mass or not eating meat on fridays (though both are important to do.)

So many live their lives as if there were tomorrow and make themselves the only cause worth serving.

So many people give God barely a thought and seem to think salvation is basically guaranteed.
 
A lot of Protestants are much worse than the Catholics at this. I had a recent conversation about this with an Evangelical. They think they are saved by their belief and acceptance of Christ. Period. Nothing else matters. Not what they do, what they think, how much they change to reflect Christ, nothing. But I see Catholics getting this way under Francis. I think ‘mercy’ now means ‘free pass.’ I cannot tell if this is intentional or just the result of a horrible miscalculation/misunderstanding of the state of the modern Church by the Holy Father / liberal wing. Little bit of both probably. To go old school, this is very bad indeed. For us all. Especially re salvation. But there I go down the rigid road again.
:whistle:
 
This sermon was written during a time of great Jansenist influence. That is not to say it is merely a product of Jansenist influence - since a faithful Catholic may hold the view in question. Nor am I calling the Saint a Jansenist. But we should not shun the historical context either. Certainly, it was a product of great and holy intentions, but is was also a product of its time.

Consider that the quotes used from some theologians and saints could potentially be misunderstood by us. Indeed, many of the Scholastics and some of the early Church Fathers were of the opinion that the minority are saved. But I think they were speaking of the whole human race, not of practicing Catholics.

Even then, it is one thing to say “a minority,” and another to say “very few.” For example, suppose slightly more than half of the entire human race were damned. Consequently, only slightly less than half of the entire human race would be saved. So, the minority would be saved. But that is not “very few” at all. I am not necessarily saying the Scholastics and some of the Church Fathers held such a generous view of “minority,” but my point is that neither did they necessarily hold a stringent view of “minority.” The term is flexible.

It should not come as a surprise, then, that rigorous positions such as about the number of the elect became less and less popular as Jansenist influence faded - especially I think in the late 19th century and early 20th century until the Council. In this later time period there was hardly a problem of theologians being “unorthodox.” But, for example, we see more and more moral theologians taking up the position that it is not difficult to make an act of perfect contrition.[1]

Or take the following from the pen of Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange O.P., known for his rigor, even among his fellow Thomists:
We cannot say whether the greater number of non-Catholic baptized adults are saved. On the contrary, it is probable that the majority of adult Catholics attain eternal life, and this because of the efficacy of redemption and the sacraments. [2]
I think Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange’s position is very reasonable. Granted, he is not necessarily speaking about our own time. But I think common sense might shake many Catholics on their deathbed to realize they need to prepare for their coming judgment by receiving the sacraments. I would like to think that many are in good faith (bad catechesis notwithstanding), and have any mortal sins remitted by some sacrament or another.

But certainly for those in good faith, preparation for their judgment is entirely in their favor. They have confession. They have extreme unction and viaticum which indirectly remit serious sin for those in good faith.[3] And perhaps they often have perfect contrition, which is especially aroused this time more than others. Many orthodox theologians, if not most, would say it is easy for those with good faith and the sacraments to obtain eternal life.

For anyone who holds this opinion precisely that they may more firmly hope in God as the salvation, they ought to confidently await the graces they need. In fact, we ought to be very optimistic about our own salvation, even as we pray for it daily. (But for anyone, however, who hold this opinion precisely as a licence for sin, they ought very much to fear the just punishment of God.)

For those non-Catholic Christians in good faith - perhaps most pious souls - who have the sacraments, how could we say they are lost? And for those pious non-Catholic Christians who do not have the sacraments, but are prompted to acts of perfect contrition or perfect charity just before their death, surely they are not lost either. The same might reasonably be said of many pious adherents of non-Christian religions which have a fair emphasis upon repentance.

But for those who are not prompted by their religion to make acts of contrition, say, because they feel assured of their salvation, their situation is highly unstable. The same for those who have no religion to speak of. And all this, even if they are in good faith. And, more obviously, the same for the large number of those who do not have access to the sacraments and are not especially inclined to piety and contrition. They simply do not have any obvious channels by which serious sin might be remitted. It is for these souls especially that we should be concerned with in evangelization - and their number is growing daily.

[1] See, for instance, Slater, S.J., “Is an Act of Perfect Contrition Difficult?” from Questions of Moral Theology, 1915; and Späth, “Perfect Contrition,” from The Casuist, Vol. III, 1910.
[2] Garrigou-Lagrange, *Predestination *(Charlotte: TAN Books, 1939), pp. 219-220
[3] Anointing of the Sick and Holy Communion obviously should not be used to remit serious sin. I am referring solely those who sincerely think they are in a state of grace, but are not. When they devoutly receive Communion (so says St. Thomas Aquinas) or receive Anointing of the Sick, they are restored to friendship with God.
 
When we were with Jesus as he taught us on the mount, he told us we are the light of the world and the salt of the earth.
So, it is up to us to shine and preserve - let’s do it and forget idle questions.
 
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