Are Lay Ministries hurting priestly vocations

[Rocky8311]

This thread has clearly run its course. (See the title of the thread, then compare the last ten posts…)

 

[Malkin71]

No I’m not going to randomly contact those international groups. I’m sure they have more important things to do.

What you’re saying is that the Code of Canon Law --the one and only Code for the Roman Church–has no bearing on the EF? I see nothing in the Code that exempts the EF.

Why not? You will find out the truth.

If I said or posted anything inacurate I will take it back or stand corrected.

All I am saying is there are two different forms of Mass and two seperate ruberics for them.

 

[Brendan]

I admit I’m not as familiar with the EF as you are. My understanding is that a subdeacon is required for the solemn High Mass. Is this right? Or do you know? If it is correct, then how can the EF solemn High Mass be celebrated? The Church no longer has the order of subdeacons.

Any person ordained to a rank of Orders higher than Sub-Deacon carries the authority of the Sub-Deacon. In other words, a Deacon or a Priest may serve as the Sub-Deacon (this was actually the most common means of saying a Solemn High Mass.

And on another point, yes the Church still does have Sub-Deacons. Orders like the FSSP have permission to ordain them, and the other sui juris Churches, like the Chalean and Melkites still do.

Our parish has a Sub Deacon. He was ordained a Sub Deacon in the Chalean Church back in Iraq. He moved to the US several decades ago and joined our (Latin) parish. He recieved faculties in the Latin Rite from then Cardinal Dearden of Detroit.

So he vests as a Sub Deacon and assists as an Acolyte at our OF Masses, but there is nothing to prevent him from being a SubDeacon at an EF Mass.

 

[Ockham]

If I may interject, CITH is a liturgical abuse. Most of us (especially the post-V2 generation) have been either desensitized or never taught the proper way to receive Communion. The Church does not teach CITH. This practice has been inflicted upon us by those with ulterior motives and the rest of us allowed it to happen. Once the Communion rails came out CITH seemed to be the norm. Teachers only instruct CITH. However, CITH is inconsistent with Church doctrine and against the teachings of numerous popes and saints. It is a Protestant way to receive their symbolic or consubstantiated communion and the “Spirit of Vatican II” ecumenical smoke blew it into our churches. If we are to reverse the decline in the Catholic Church, things like CITH have to be corrected. If you disregard the modernist’s rhetoric and think about it honestly, there is no other way to receive our Lord.

 

[diggerdomer]

Ewtn does have Solemn High O.F. Masses on t.v.

I think you should become more familiar with the E.F. form. Also with the documents of Vatican II. You will different understanding about the goings on in the church. A good book to read about the development of the Mass in “Reform of the Roman Liturgy” by Msg. Klaus Gamber. Roman Catholic Books is the publisher.

Ask F.S.S.P. about serving the Solemn High Mass or the institute of Christ the King. They are the experts. I enclosed the link in one of my replys. Further more I even posted the address on the Pontifical Council of Eclesia Dei. They will help you with their questions.

When quoting from the GIRM make sure you know the norms for waht you are discussing
because the norms are different for some things here in America than other countries around the world.

I am familiar with the Vatican II documents and the GIRM, thank you. I’m aware that the GIRM approved for the U.S. includes approved adaptations. If you think there’s something specific I typed that led you to believe otherwise please let me know.

I admit I am not as familiar as I’d like to be with the 1962 Missal. I’m sure I’ll learn more.

 

[Malkin71]

I am familiar with the Vatican II documents and the GIRM, thank you. I’m aware that the GIRM approved for the U.S. includes approved adaptations. If you think there’s something specific I typed that led you to believe otherwise please let me know.

I admit I am not as familiar as I’d like to be with the 1962 Missal. I’m sure I’ll learn more.

I agree that the GIRM is “universal” around the world minus the adaptations for different countries. The problem I have with the GRIM is the vague wording. There are statements that cause confusion among Bishops and Priests. I can go into detail, But, that is a WHOLE NEW THREAD. That is the reason why the Mass varies from Parish to Parish and Dioceces to Dioceces.

Start reading up on the 1962 Missal by getting books that explain it. A good book is “The Latin Mass Explained”. You can get it from Leaflett Missal Company and Tan Books.
Go and visit the web sites of F.S.S.S.P. and The Institue of Christ The King. Read and ask questions.

If you perfer the O.F. that is fine. That is your choice. There is nothing wrong with reading up and studying up on the E.F.

That is what makes this fourm great. Seeing something that you never heard before and reading up and checking it out. It has help me increase my knowledge of my Faith.

 

[paperwight]

If I may interject, CITH is a liturgical abuse. Most of us (especially the post-V2 generation) have been either desensitized or never taught the proper way to receive Communion. The Church does not teach CITH. This practice has been inflicted upon us by those with ulterior motives and the rest of us allowed it to happen. Once the Communion rails came out CITH seemed to be the norm. Teachers only instruct CITH. However, CITH is inconsistent with Church doctrine and against the teachings of numerous popes and saints. It is a Protestant way to receive their symbolic or consubstantiated communion and the “Spirit of Vatican II” ecumenical smoke blew it into our churches. If we are to reverse the decline in the Catholic Church, things like CITH have to be corrected. If you disregard the modernist’s rhetoric and think about it honestly, there is no other way to receive our Lord.

How do you explain why the Pope hasn’t forbidden CITH, then, if it’s so awful?

Are you saying that the Pope wouldn’t be aware of anything ‘inconsistent with Church doctrine’ and totally uncaring about something ‘against the teachings of numerous popes and saints’?

 

[Ockham]

Why hasn’t the Pope ruled against CITH? That’s a valid question. Consider how many popes have written against it including Paul VI? Look what happened when Benedict XVI wanted a more conservative bishop in Austria. The Austrian bishops nearly revolted. Sadly, it appears a sudden ruling on CITH would cause the modernists to cry bloody murder and leave the Church. Conversely, the practice was brought onto us in sudden manner as most of the post-Vatican ‘reforms’ like the Novus Ordo.

 

[missal]

Dear Fellow Thread Posters:
Please, please, if you are quoting Scripture, Canon Law, Vatican II, the Pope et cetera, give the reference. If you think something says something, go look it up, make the accurate quote, give the reference and let us do the checking. We are making no progress just pulling information out of the wind. Thanks, AT

hi
I’m not always tuned in here. What is the purpose of the delicious looking chocolate cake icon? Are you a cook?

View attachment 5467

 

[atassina]

The theme of this thread is the effect of lay ministries on priestly vocations. Catholic women bake cakes. Priests like cake. Therefore, become a priest and have all the cake you want. In short, it is a subliminal message to entice young men to become priests. Just think a new lay ministry: baker for vocations.

 

[paperwight]

The theme of this thread is the effect of lay ministries on priestly vocations. Catholic women bake cakes. Priests like cake. Therefore, become a priest and have all the cake you want. In short, it is a subliminal message to entice young men to become priests. Just think a new lay ministry: baker for vocations.

Love it!

 

[Rocky8311]

I do and don’t understand the frustration with lay ministers here. I don’t see enough acknowledgment that there are bad AND GOOD lay ministers. I’ve experienced both kinds.

Do you believe that people are unable to discern their vocations for themselves? Do you believe that every man who studies for lay ministry was really called by God to be a priest, but they disobeyed him and got married?

I’m 25 and the parish I attended in high school still has the same team of three religious education lay ministers that were in place back then, 7-10 years ago. The catechesis was poor then and I have to wonder if it’s just as poor now. These three women supervise and coordinate volunteer catechists. My mom was one. She wasn’t raised in her faith after baptism, doesn’t know her faith yet, and definitely can’t express an excitement about the fullness of the faith. I think young people need to know it all and know that it matters in the life of somebody they can look up to. I plan to get involved in parochial religious education in the next session.

I learned the most about my faith in high school from Boy Scout religious emblem classes and a bible study led by a lay man. In the bible study, we learned scripture, patristics, apologetics, and pretty much everything. He was ALIVE and vibrant, he taught the fullness of the Catholic faith, and he turned my life around. Not to appeal to sentiment, but do the same people who protest laypeople having the title “youth minister” also protest when the layman has no official title but does the same exact things to bring youth to the fullness of faith?

I do believe that more men are called to religious vocations. I just don’t think that the existence of lay ministries is what diverts them. They’re diverted by fathers, absent or not, who fail to be the spiritual head of the household, by mothers who don’t or can’t do enough to counteract this. And those fathers and mothers weren’t raised in their Catholic faith themselves, so you can’t really blame them. And this goes back decades.

I know far more orthodox lay ministers than I do orthodox Catholic priests. I think these lay ministers contribute the most in Texas to encouraging young men into the priesthood. Often they do it despite a pretty blase’ pastor.

One more reason I think this is silly is that I know of so many who go from lay ministry to religious vocation. The lay ministry phase was merely a valuable stage of their formation. This is more common in women I know, but it goes the same for men, I’m certain.

The campus missionaries of the Fellowship of Catholic University Students aren’t properly called lay ministers…but they’re the same thing. After a college student graduates, they may apply for this organization, which is very orthodox, provides very faithful training, and sends these missionaries to a campus in teams of >4. They raise their salaries and can make up to $40k/year last I heard (but they’re unlikely to raise that much). They aren’t allowed to date for their first year. They get assigned reading like Gaudium et Spes. Priestly vocations come out of this organization, too. Is this objectionable to anybody? Because the way I see it, this is an authentic Catholic culture and catechesis powerhouse that involves lay ministers and leads to making missionaries and students consider priestly vocations.

Legitimately interested in your perspectives.