Are men welcome in the Church

[SteveLy]

romancatholicman.com/catholic-churches-to-men-youre-not-welcome-here/

"It is overwhelmingly clear that traditional characteristics of masculinity are simply not welcomed in society and are seen as actual dangers to social harmony. Boys typically become “trouble” the moment they get to school where their natural desire for competition, danger, and activity are suppressed. We just keep popping that little rambunctious mole on the head until it stays in its hole, and if he doesn’t, well, we have pills for that. But then in 15 years when he stays in the basement playing with “man-toys” we bemoan that he won’t come out and “man-up.” "

I found this quote interesting in that it explains pretty well the need to start formation of men while they are still boys. This last Sunday (Palm Sunday) I was sitting in a pew for some training on the Triduum with a young boy who made a “whip” out of his palms (as every boy has done after Mass on Palm Sunday). A woman who is quite faithful sitting behind us mentioned that the boy should not make a whip with his palms…I smiled as I replied it is “biologically impossible for a young boy to not make a whip out of his palms”. As you can imagine, the boy was pleased with my response.

While I don’t think “men’s movements” are the answer, training Christian men to accept the mission offered by Christ is deeply needed in the Church today.

Your thoughts are welcome.

 

[Lea101]

Your title made me roll my eyes of course men are welcome!! Some might argue that they are preferred over women. But obviously I read your post and I know what you are talking about

I think we live in a society where both uber feminine and masculine traits are not encouraged and that people generally want masculine women and feminine men.

I’m obviously not a boy, but I know I liked slapping my brothers with palms too (the palms that are very sharp and painful. Excellent weapon, lol). However, I feel like the woman you were talking about just wanted the boy to show some respect (the palms are blessed, right? Maybe playing with it in such a way doesn’t seem like a good idea to her, especially in church too)

I do think that there is a masculinity crisis (and a feminine, but this thread is focused on men). Men are either encouraged to be aggressive jerks, or spineless doormats. Men’s groups imo can be great. I personally don’t know how that will turn out bc I’m a woman, and I feel like too much focus on gender in the Church might seem like they are forcing people to be a certain way (as we see in some women’s circles) and it’ll turn people off. But men’s groups in parishes that teach the gospel in perhaps a language that men can understand is a good idea. Or at least men and women’s sessions in retreats or something similar

 

[ChikaisHis]

Of course men are welcome! (What would we do without our priests???)
I do agree that more groups that appeal to men would be beneficial to many parishes, both social (not that you are not welcome to the knitting and baking groups ) as well as faith formation/ Bible study groups.

However, I don’t really understand the points the article is making. Both men and women are called to take on the challenge of conversion.EVERY Catholic is called to Evangelization and being bold witnesses to Christ. And the liturgy is both for women and for men- and I’ll speak for myself, I do appreciate a beautifully celebrated liturgy. God deserves it! Yet he is still present even when the music is horrible, so it is no reason to miss Mass.
There are many ways we can make our Church better, but the problem doesn’t stem from excluding men.

Finally, I don’t understand why discouraging a child from making a whip out of palm fronds is anti-masculine. It is more likely that the woman wanted the boy to be reverent with the blessed palms. As for it being biologically impossible to not make a whip if you are male- I think we should agree that true masculinity is not about being violent.

 

[Irishmom2]

romancatholicman.com/catholic-churches-to-men-youre-not-welcome-here/

I smiled as I replied it is “biologically impossible for a young boy to not make a whip out of his palms”. As you can imagine, the boy was pleased with my response.

While I don’t think “men’s movements” are the answer, training Christian men to accept the mission offered by Christ is deeply needed in the Church today.

Your thoughts are welcome.

Well, it is ironic that you think we should train men, or dare I say, males to accept the mission offered by Christ, and then you give the boy making a whip a pass. It may have been better for you to have also explained that however fun a whip may be, the Palm is blessed and should be treated with respect. You know, a teaching moment.

 

[SteveLy]

Thank you for the responses.

I find it interesting only women replied. One of the things I think we fall into as Catholics is having a black and white perspective of how things should be. This little boy wasn’t the only one using the palms as a whip, just one I was sitting next to when the comment was made.

The larger point I think is we have a wonderful mission from Christ. Unfortunately it has through the decades been too often turned into a set of tasks more aligned with checking off a religious task list than as witness to our journey.

“Go to Mass”
“Go to confession”
“Give to the Church”
“Get Confirmed”

Just read many of the threads each year around Confirmation time and you see parents and Catechists asking how to get their child to Confirmation class so they can have the Bishop lay hands on them as if that is as important as the child actually CONFIRMING their faith (which they don’t really have)…

We have sort of lost the mission in the mire of task oriented way points. If we actually taught the kids the faith, then let them decide to be Confirmed or not, then we might have a stronger church.

Generally speaking, boys are much better at doing things associated with a great mission with great purpose, than meeting timeline expectations for their parents. I have a feeling this is why so many youth leave after high school. They haven’t been offered anything greater than they feel the world is offering.

Thanks again for your responses.

 

[Bonnie]

I smiled as I replied it is “biologically impossible for a young boy to not make a whip out of his palms”. As you can imagine, the boy was pleased with my response.

It isn’t just boys. Years ago my daughter & a same-age boy thought a sword fight with candles (thankfully not lit!) was a good idea. I scolded both of them since they were altar servers & should behave - at least at church!

 

[ChikaisHis]

Thank you for the responses.

I find it interesting only women replied. One of the things I think we fall into as Catholics is having a black and white perspective of how things should be. This little boy wasn’t the only one using the palms as a whip, just one I was sitting next to when the comment was made.

**The larger point I think is we have a wonderful mission from Christ. Unfortunately it has through the decades been too often turned into a set of tasks more aligned with checking off a religious task list than as witness to our journey. **

“Go to Mass”
“Go to confession”
“Give to the Church”
“Get Confirmed”

Just read many of the threads each year around Confirmation time and you see parents and Catechists asking how to get their child to Confirmation class so they can have the Bishop lay hands on them as if that is as important as the child actually CONFIRMING their faith (which they don’t really have)…

**We have sort of lost the mission in the mire of task oriented way points. If we actually taught the kids the faith, then let them decide to be Confirmed or not, then we might have a stronger church. **

Generally speaking, boys are much better at doing things associated with a great mission with great purpose, than meeting timeline expectations for their parents.** I have a feeling this is why so many youth leave after high school. They haven’t been offered anything greater than they feel the world is offering.
**
Thanks again for your responses.

I wasn’t trying to paint things in black and white, just coming up with a possible explanation as to why the woman told the boy he should not make a whip. I still don’t quite understand how discouraging whips is unwelcoming to males (girls make them too), when her intention was probably to encourage reverence. (However misguided she may be). Is it not black and white to say that it is impossible for boys not to make whips?

And I completely agree with what you said in bold (very well said indeed, and I feel very strongly about these points), but neither men nor women should view Christianity as a set of tasks. Two of my favourite quotes from two men:
Being Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction. - Pope Benedict XVI
Let your religion be less of a theory and more of a love affair - GK Chesterton.

 

[Catholic1954]

romancatholicman.com/catholic-churches-to-men-youre-not-welcome-here/

"It is overwhelmingly clear that traditional characteristics of masculinity are simply not welcomed in society and are seen as actual dangers to social harmony. Boys typically become “trouble” the moment they get to school where their natural desire for competition, danger, and activity are suppressed. We just keep popping that little rambunctious mole on the head until it stays in its hole, and if he doesn’t, well, we have pills for that. But then in 15 years when he stays in the basement playing with “man-toys” we bemoan that he won’t come out and “man-up.” "

I found this quote interesting in that it explains pretty well the need to start formation of men while they are still boys. This last Sunday (Palm Sunday) I was sitting in a pew for some training on the Triduum with a young boy who made a “whip” out of his palms (as every boy has done after Mass on Palm Sunday). A woman who is quite faithful sitting behind us mentioned that the boy should not make a whip with his palms…I smiled as I replied it is “biologically impossible for a young boy to not make a whip out of his palms”. As you can imagine, the boy was pleased with my response.

While I don’t think “men’s movements” are the answer, training Christian men to accept the mission offered by Christ is deeply needed in the Church today.

Your thoughts are welcome.

Let boys be boys, however, they should not be making whips out their palms at Mass on Palm Sunday. :doh2:

 

[johnnyc176]

The larger point I think is we have a wonderful mission from Christ. Unfortunately it has through the decades been too often turned into a set of tasks more aligned with checking off a religious task list than as witness to our journey.

“Go to Mass”
“Go to confession”
“Give to the Church”
“Get Confirmed”

I have heard of this sometimes in the form of derisively calling faithful Catholics ‘pray, pay and obey’ Catholics by those who say those Catholics lack a relationship with Jesus. But we are commanded to do all three in Scripture and of course Jesus tells us ‘if you love me you will obey my commandments’.

We should be careful to not put forth the protestant notion of a ‘personal relationship with Jesus’. Without the Church then it becomes a search for a personal Jesus. A true personal relationship with Jesus must include the Church that He founded, the Catholic Church, the Sacraments He instituted for us (I will be with you always) and the doctrine (If you love me you will obey my commandments).

 

[SteveLy]

I have heard of this sometimes in the form of derisively calling faithful Catholics ‘pray, pay and obey’ Catholics by those who say those Catholics lack a relationship with Jesus. But we are commanded to do all three in Scripture and of course Jesus tells us ‘if you love me you will obey my commandments’.

We should be careful to not put forth the protestant notion of a ‘personal relationship with Jesus’. Without the Church then it becomes a search for a personal Jesus. A true personal relationship with Jesus must include the Church that He founded, the Catholic Church and the Sacraments He instituted for us (I will be with you always) and the doctrine (If you love me you will obey my commandments).

Agreed. That’s why I came over.

But we should also be careful not to say that just because someone performed an action out of duty that it is the full expression of the faith. Even Paul warns (1Cor11:27-29) of receiving the Eucharist in an unworthy manner brings condemnation on us.

 

[exnihilo]

First off I am a man. I agree that our culture is very effeminate and opposed to true masculinity. That said the kid shouldn’t be doing that with a blessed palm. I would say something myself. Part of a masculine culture is defining and enforcing clear boundaries.

I think the mushiness that has been accepted by so many Catholics isn’t attractive to men. I’m a Protestant convert. One thing that spurred my conversion was the even worse effeminacy in Mainline Protestantism. I converted because I believe the Catholic Church is the Church started by Jesus. But I was well aware that effeminacy had crept into a Catholic practice. I wasn’t very attracted to much modern Catholic practice. So I obviously think the Church would be better served by turning away from this effeminacy which is pervasive.

Just read many of the threads each year around Confirmation time and you see parents and Catechists asking how to get their child to Confirmation class so they can have the Bishop lay hands on them as if that is as important as the child actually CONFIRMING their faith (which they don’t really have)…

Confirmation isn’t really affirming your faith. The Baltimore Catechism says, ‘Confirmation is so called from its chief effect, which is to strengthen or render us more firm in whatever belongs to our faith and religious duties’. The Orthodox confirm babies when they baptize them. Obviously I agree that parents should be more concerned about their child actually having and living the Faith.

 

[Lea101]

First off I am a man. I agree that our culture is very effeminate and opposed to true masculinity. That said the kid shouldn’t be doing that with a blessed palm. I would say something myself. Part of a masculine culture is defining and enforcing clear boundaries.

I think the mushiness that has been accepted by so many Catholics isn’t attractive to men. I’m a Protestant convert. One thing that spurred my conversion was the even worse effeminacy in Mainline Protestantism. I converted because I believe the Catholic Church is the Church started by Jesus. But I was well aware that effeminacy had crept into a Catholic practice. I wasn’t very attracted to much modern Catholic practice. So I obviously think the Church would be better served by turning away from this effeminacy which is pervasive.

Just curious, what do you mean by effeminacy? In the mass?

I don’t like how Mass is celebrated right now in my parish, but I can’t put my finger on it, so maybe this is it.

 

[exnihilo]

Just curious, what do you mean by effeminacy? In the mass?

I don’t like how Mass is celebrated right now in my parish, but I can’t put my finger on it, so maybe this is it.

I mean it in a few ways. And I could do much better myself. One is in not being willing to suffer and do what is hard. This would include unwillingness to forgo pleasures. I think we should fast and abstained more. We should not make use of problematic entertainment. We should not always chose the easiest way to do things. These are a couple of examples but there are more.

Another way I mean it is in not calling out sinful behavior. We have to be prudent of course but I think we let far too much slide.

There is a lack of seriousness. Humor has its place but often I find irreverent humor. The content is not always what is irreverent but the circumstances.

Also there is a certain asthetic that I find effeminate. I see this in much of modern church art including statues, paintings, architecture, and even dress.

I too wish Mass was celebrated a bit differently in my parish. But we also have to keep in mind that not everything has to be our way. That itself could be effeminacy. Men lead but they also follow.

 

[jeannetherese]

romancatholicman.com/catholic-churches-to-men-youre-not-welcome-here/

"It is overwhelmingly clear that traditional characteristics of masculinity are simply not welcomed in society and are seen as actual dangers to social harmony. Boys typically become “trouble” the moment they get to school where their natural desire for competition, danger, and activity are suppressed. We just keep popping that little rambunctious mole on the head until it stays in its hole, and if he doesn’t, well, we have pills for that. But then in 15 years when he stays in the basement playing with “man-toys” we bemoan that he won’t come out and “man-up.” "

While I don’t think “men’s movements” are the answer, training Christian men to accept the mission offered by Christ is deeply needed in the Church today.

Your thoughts are welcome.

One could, alternatively, describe the suppression of a natural desire for competition, danger, and activity as teaching Self-discipline, which equips men to power through adversity, hold fast to their faith in the face of the allures of materialism (and those basement video games) and channel their natural desire for activity productively.
I’m not sure that the crisis of boys (and girls) channeling their time and energy into video games is a crisis of masculinity.
I tend to be more concerned about increasing alienation as individuals turn to technology for the stimulus and relationships which they previously might have more frequently sought via interpersonal contact.

 

[SteveLy]

If you are looking for a reverent parish in the Philadelphia area, St John the Baptist Bridgeport (near King of Prussia) would welcome your visit.

sjbbridgeport.org

Pax

 

[ConfusedLucy]

I cant help but notice a disproportionate number of females, whether its the congregation, Sunday school or confirmation classes. Obviously the church isn’t intending this but I think it can be a bit of circular thing, the more women the more feminine something gets and the less males feel part of it.