Are most 'Conservative' Christians completely irrational?

[SuperLuigi]

An okay response to this complex question fallacy posted by @SalamKhan.

 

[ColdComfort1]

That sounds like common sense. I’ve never heard of Taqiyya but generally speaking if someone has a habit of dishonesty in debate then I wouldn’t bother talking to him.

 

[De_Maria]

I’m not 100 % sure though that lying is always a sin in the Catholic religion

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The eighth commandment
www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a8.htm
2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the …

Some Catholics may say that lying is always a sin,but realistically,if they were put in a life and death situation

What individuals do, in spite of Catholic Teaching, is between them and God.

However, lying permissible and is institutionalized by the Islamic faith as has already been proven. Muslims have, what they consider, a God given right to lie in certain situations, which, in my opinion, can justify lying continually.

 

[Rozellelily]

2485 By its very nature, lying is to be condemned. It is a profanation of speech, whereas the purpose of speech is to communicate known truth to others. The deliberate intention of leading a neighbor into error by saying things contrary to the truth constitutes a failure in justice and charity. The culpability is greater when the …

I read that already,but look at the words and context.
Is it intended for situations of duress like Isis,Nazi or a known psychopath?
Does our purpose of speech have a duty and purpose to communicate truth to Isis (if they asked whereabouts of someone)?
Are we committing a failure of justice and charity by not doing so?
Do we owe them the charity of knowing the truth in this circumstance?

Regarding martyrs and martyrdom-no doubt that is the greatest way to be and they are incredible people but in reality,could everyone be able to do that?
Could every wife and sister(in reality not just words behind a computer) have the courage to have their head decapitated (or some other gruesome thing) by Isis or similar?
I thought martyrdom was a grace but I could be wrong.

 

[De_Maria]

I read that already,but look at the words and context.
Is it intended for situations of duress like Isis,Nazi or a known psychopath?
Does our purpose of speech have a duty and purpose to communicate truth to Isis (if they asked whereabouts of someone)?
Are we committing a failure of justice and charity by not doing so?
Do we owe them the charity of knowing the truth in this circumstance?

In a situation like that, there is no duty to respond. But there is never a duty to lie. The ends do not justify the means.

Regarding martyrs and martyrdom-no doubt that is the greatest way to be and they are incredible people but in reality,could everyone be able to do that?

If they are not, that is another question which does not have anything to do with the license to lie.

A person who feels coerced to commit any sin, because of a threat to life and limb, still sins. But God is just and according to the Teaching of the Church, the penalty for the sin is mitigated.

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and **which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”**131

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1862 One commits venial sin when, in a less serious matter, he does not observe the standard prescribed by the moral law, or when he disobeys the moral law in a grave matter, but without full knowledge or without complete consent.

Thus, the gravity of a sin is less, if it is coerced in any way.

Could every wife and sister(in reality not just words behind a computer) have the courage to have their head decapitated (or some other gruesome thing) by Isis or similar?
I thought martyrdom was a grace but I could be wrong.

It is. But that doesn’t mean that it’s an easy choice.

 

[Rozellelily]

I understand what you are saying,but at the same time,doesn’t sin have to make sense?
Where is the sense in lying in a situation like this?
What is “the harm” (so to speak)?

 

[De_Maria]

I understand what you are saying,but at the same time,doesn’t sin have to make sense?

Does “sin have to make sense”?

I don’t understand the question.

Where is the sense in lying in a situation like this?

In the worldly sense, there are situations in which lying might avoid trouble. In a minimal sense, lying for the sake of convenience. In a worst case scenario, lying to save someone’s life.

But, for God, a soul is more important than a worldly life:

Matthew 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Personally, I don’t know how one could lose one’s soul in that situation. But, that still doesn’t mean that God has given us the license to lie.

What is “the harm” (so to speak)?

Unknown. Lying in a situation of that sort, does not guarantee anyone’s safety. In other words, one might lie thinking to protect oneself but the perpetrator might not agree with the lie either and nothing be gained.

 

[SuperLuigi]

Are you asking if it’s harmful to lie in order to try and bring about sharia law?

If so, are you okay giving up your freedom as long as the conquer is the right, politically correct demographic?

 

[Crusaderbear]

Irrational? No. Very stubborn? Oh yeah…

 

[Rozellelily]

Sorry,was that question directed to me or someone else please?

 

[Rozellelily]

It still doesn’t make sense unfortunately though and I thought sin (ie:why something is a sin) was supposed to make sense.
Eg:it makes sense that it would be a sin for someone to lie to their spouse about an infidelity because it hurts another person or it makes sense that pornography is a sin because it makes people (usually women) be seem in a way as just an object,used,devalued etc…
Usually,we can understand why a sin is a sin-ie:it makes sense but this doesn’t.

 

[De_Maria]

It still doesn’t make sense unfortunately though

It doesn’t make sense, to you.

 

[Rozellelily]

Yes,that’s what I mean,to me.
In which way does it make sense to you?

 

[De_Maria]

I thought I explained it. Are we still talking about people who have been threatened into committing sin?

 

[Rozellelily]

Yes.
I understand your explanation that it becomes venial sin but it still doesn’t make sense (to me!) that lying in this instance would be a sin even if “only” venial one.
Sin is sin because it causes harm between us and our neighbour or with God-what’s the harm that’s caused in the instance of someone lying to for example Isis or someone similar?

 

[De_Maria]

Sin is sin because it causes harm between us and our neighbour or with God…

Sin is disobedience of God’s commands.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

There are many venial sins which harm no one. For example, if one were to steal a pencil from work. But they remain sins because they transgress God’s law. Albeit, venial sins.

That’s why it’s a venial sin. But a venial sin does not condemn anyone to hell.

1863 …However venial sin does not break the covenant with God. With God’s grace it is humanly reparable. “Venial sin does not deprive the sinner of sanctifying grace, friendship with God, charity, and consequently eternal happiness.”…

-what’s the harm that’s caused in the instance of someone lying to for example Isis or someone similar?

There’s no guarantee that the lie won’t cause harm, anyway. All you know is that it isn’t intended to cause harm.

The best course to follow is to simply refrain from answering their questions or from talking to them when in that situation.

 

[Rozellelily]

Wouldn’t that mean though that Catholics can’t become Police Officers because police sometimes “have to” lie,example when doing undercover operations they lie/pretend that they are one of the criminals?

Sure,they could say to their boss they can’t take a certain job because they are Catholic and it’s a sin to lie…but is this realistic?
They might not have their job for long after that if they say this.