Are my thoughts unchaste? [this is long]

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Oh_Charlotte

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I like someone. I am physically drawn to him, besides every other way.

I fear my thoughts are unchaste, however, I wonder if they are just normal thoughts! Its a long story of background. Only way I can tell it. It will take two posts to tell my love story.

I had a very long marriage almost intimacy-free because of my ex’s Narcissim. After a traumatic divorce I remained chaste because I know Gods ways are best no matter how I may feel “in the moment”. I avoid all near occasion of sin. I was very lonely. But the bad marraige and the loneliness all made me depend on God who is able. I am grateful for every hardship because of I had to draw near to God and get my comfort from him.

I evolved to this thought: I would never look for a husband; I chose the first time and it was a disaster! I would only be content with where God has me now, and perhaps He wants me to remain single and perhaps He wants me to join a convent someday. And if He wants me to have a husband He will have to* bring him to me* and make it PERFECTLY clear to me. And it would certainly not be till after my son graduates high school. Two and a half years. I have become quite content alone! The Sacraments of the Church offer me all I need for a good life, for peace and contentment no matter what my circumstances.

In October I attended a healing ministry. I arranged it for a friend who bailed. I felt Jesus call me to go, even though I felt pretty fine, He wanted to make me “whole”. It as a powerful transformation. Apparently I had PTSD for a good part of my life. It was all healed and everyday feels like a new day.

The healing was in another state and I realized my old friend lived there and mapped it and it was a mile less to go through his town. I met him by private messaging him on a forum where i liked what he wrote. I was at the end of my marriage then (but at the time I thought I’d always be married) and Robert was a faithful Catholic and very moral man who after his wife left decided to remain celibate the rest of his life. I needed a man in my life and this was a safe way. He lived far away in another state and strictly wanted to be only friends and respected my marriage vows.

I should tell you my marriage was very verbally and emotionally abusive and when I converted to Catholic (from Evangelical) a couple years previous to the start of this correspondence, every single priest (and I only talked to strict ones!) told me, “That’s not a marriage”. It was a difficult and lonely life, that’s why I craved a friend, a male one in particular (I had plenty of female friends IRL) because in the loneliness of my long marriage I did not talk to men much or make friends with them ever because I kept myself with my loneliness from any near occasion of sin. .

So Robert and I wrote about everything. I was grateful for my understanding email friend. I sent him a picture of my son and I once. Not a very good one! I was an unhappy person trying to look happy. I had seen his picture on his website so I knew kind of what he looked like. I admired Robert and trusted him, and because of his faith he wouldn’t lead me astray. Well there was a spark there and we once flirted, briefly, but quickly repented and kept all our correspondence chaste. And wrote constantly. I emailed him when I was shocked by divorce, and through the custody battle and that whole nightmare. What a supportive friend.

When it looked to all the world I had settled in my single-mom life, over two years after the long divorce was finalized, Robert surprised me with an email where he alluded an interest in more-than-friends. I was shocked, and afraid. Now I know I was in PTSD mode. I was afraid of marriage after my bad experience, I was afraid he would meet me IRL and not like me, and I could not handle any more rejection. Or I would meet him IRL and he would seem some stranger and I would not like him, then I would be as bad a person as my ex. I was full of fear and indecison. So I did something uncharacteristic of me, and ignored it.

Our correspondence dropped off after that. My life was not easy, many changes, moves. Now I am settled, healed in many ways, very content to be alone and on top of that, that very weekend in October Jesus made me all whole. I never felt better in my life. And I must look better without the burden of brokenness because people see me differently, markedly.
 
Right after this healing I drove to meet Robert who was not expecting me; he had not gotten my email, and was quite surprised! I was surprised he was surprised and also surprised how I liked his eyes immediately, and his manner, and his “physicality”. A word that I never used before, that popped in my mind. I loved talking to him for the brief time we had. I realize now I never wanted to take my eyes off him the whole time. But I thought it was elation because of my recent healing, I was brimming over with joy because of it. That I enjoyed my friend in person was nice, but did make sense, too; I had enjoyed him in writing.

Time flew; I was pressed for time. I often puzzle on how much time we had. One hour? Couldn’t have been more than two. I needed to hurry and leave. Before I left, he took my hands in both of his while we prayed the Angelus together. Then he hugged me. Not a long hug, not sensual, really, though I felt that for a fleeting second. Then he turned from me and went in the house. And I watched him, not wanting him to go! It was hard to get in that car! But it was getting dark and I had to drive unfamiliar dark hilly roads to my friend who was waiting.

Next morning, I told her that after the healing the very best part of the weekend was Roberts hug. She was floored. “Charlotte! This is not like you. I think this is something special!” I vehemently denied it. Then I left for the long drive back to my state, and I could NOT get Robert off my mind. That hug. Those hands enfolding mine. His touch. The passion in his voice when I said yes I would pray with him. His touch… I thought of nothing else.

After the long drive there was a birthday dinner celebration for me and when I finally was alone, in bed, in the dark, I lay there in blissful stillness in the dark and wept silent happy tears. I have never had not-bitter tears. These were like sweet and silent. My heart was full of Robert.

I tried to get him off my mind but as the week went on it got worse. My thoughts keep racing towards unchaste now - I kept imagining marital intimacy with him. I cried out to God to help me clear that off my mind and He did. I wrote to Robert angrily saying, “You did this to me on purpose!” That began our very long renewed correspondence. I knew also I needed to confess but never made time, so a week later, my first Mass since the Sunday I met Robert in person, I went to Mass having decided not to take communion. I expected to feel very distant from our Lord. I felt bad that I had spent the whole week obsessing about Robert only, instead of being in thankful joy for the miracle of healing. How ungrateful I was! I felt ashamed. But instead at that Mass I felt a very great peace and comfort from Jesus, as if He were saying, “Its okay. I love you. I am not angry with you.”

Before the next Mass I confessed; the priest wanted to know if I was free to marry! I wasn’t thinking marriage. Or was I? I confessed not long after to another priest when I wasn’t sure of the chasteness of my thought, also without mentioning marriage. This priest said he would pray I would be free to marry… Two priests in confession spoke of my marrying. I have found that things said by priests in confession to me have been deeply meaningful… But this is already what I was dreaming of. Two and a half years to wait, but we are both quite used to waiting…

I am seeing him soon, have to go to his state to take my son on a college tour. I will see Robert three days this time! I am staying in a convent nights. We cannot wait. We are emailing constantly and these feelings we very much share.

And I constantly desire his touch, his hug. I discipline myself to not think of more. Love jsut radiates out from my heart to my whole body and all I want is to be held by him, to touch him, to hug him. Its very much on my mind for this visit.

My natruapath says hormones ahve been activated and that’s why I got a period after 4 years no period. We are talking marriage. I imagine a marital embrace. We are both committed to chastity and this is not happening before. When I am full of love for him and imagining his embrace, when I think of marriage as we talk of it - we are working out some serious logistic details in fact - the marital embrace crosses my mind. I try really hard not to think lower body, so hard that my face gets overheated. My natruapath also said this is the hormones, coursing thorough my body “with no place to go”. I think this is so hard. I am wondering if imagining the marital embrace which is to take place after you marry, with someone you plan to marry – is this unchaste thought? Because maybe the herculon effort to not think it is exhausting. maybe I should not make this effort. What do you think? Chaste or not chaste? Pure or impure?
 
It is a delight that you should have found someone who apparently makes you feel more whole than you’ve felt in years, however, yes, you should be chaste in your dealings with him. For no other reason than all persons are called to that state while non married. Both of you share a strong faith so I think both of you recognise this, despite the great attraction between you. I think you’re both strong enough to live by that restriction.

Now as to your future, I note you’ve been divorced. If you want to marry your beau at some point in the future, the Church will need to be satisfied that you were not validly married to your ex. If he suffered from a mental disorder (Narcissism is one of those, to the best of my belief) it is possible there was a valid impediment to his vow, so you may be able to get an annulment. If you’re considering a potential marriage in the future then you should consult the right departments of your diocese immediately.

All that being said, it is not wrong to have instinctive desires for someone we are so strongly attracted to. That is part of being human. It’s God’s gift to us that helps us make near unbreakable bonds with our spouses. And, of course, with the application of the discipline of chastity before marriage, that only makes the wait for the marital embrace more tantalising and cements in our hearts our long term desire for our proposed spouse.

But you should be careful not to dwell in your desires such that you begin to experience lust.

Now obviously the same restriction applies to him, since you say his wife left him. He too will need to be considered free to marry by the Church if there should ever be a hope of marriage between you.

You should both talk to your priest. Start the process of determining whether an annulment is possible for both of you. In the meantime, don’t do anything rash that would separate you from the Sacraments.

It sounds like you’re both genuinely lovely people. I hope it all works out for both of you.
 
It is important to keep in mind that until such time that the marriages are found to have been invalid…if they were (via the annulment process) …you and he are presumed to be married…(on the norm) and thus need to keep this in mind in so far as how you currently are to live.

(and of course one would have to avoid unchaste thoughts even if one was not presumed married…turn your thoughts elsewhere…to chaste subjects like snow or puppies or what not…)

You are not free to marry at this time …but are presumed to be married.

So the first thing to do is to have your marriages investigated by the Church. This starts with the Priest at your parish. So make the call…and start the process…

Draw close to Christ…in him is true life in all circumstance we may have to undergo…
 
[And I constantly desire his touch, his hug. I discipline myself to not think of more. Love jsut radiates out from my heart to my whole body and all I want is to be held by him, to touch him, to hug him. Its very much on my mind for this visit.

My natruapath says hormones ahve been activated and that’s why I got a period after 4 years no period. We are talking marriage. I imagine a marital embrace. We are both committed to chastity and this is not happening before. When I am full of love for him and imagining his embrace, when I think of marriage as we talk of it - we are working out some serious logistic details in fact - the marital embrace crosses my mind. I try really hard not to think lower body, so hard that my face gets overheated. My natruapath also said this is the hormones, coursing thorough my body “with no place to go”. I think this is so hard. I am wondering if imagining the marital embrace which is to take place after you marry, with someone you plan to marry – is this unchaste thought? Because maybe the herculon effort to not think it is exhausting. maybe I should not make this effort. What do you think? Chaste or not chaste? Pure or impure?
[/QUOTE]

Surely if you plan to marry (and will only do so if the Church permits it) and until that happens you don’t act in any physical way on your thoughts by doing anything un-chaste it really can’t be a problem, can it ? We all occassionally think things we shouldn’t in many spheres of life, surely the virtue is not acting on those thoughts.

As far as I can see the only difference is that with thoughts of this kind, it would be a sin to endulge them because you find it physically pleasurable to do so and I guess you also have to be extra careful what you do together in case an otherwise innocent act becomes sexually charged.
 
Thank you DexUK for kind thoughts and yes, as both you and Bookcat say, I need to get annulled. Finally I left a message with my priest’s answering service today. I keep trying to catch the office open and keep missing it. I intended to do all this when my son graduated high school because I could not imagine a need before. But my friend pointed out that as my ex is a Narcissist, it would be good to do this asap anyway rather than wait till I am in a hurry because that can make a Narcissist delay - just for the opportunity to control. And since lately we are talking of logistics for making this happen, yes, an annulment is in order!

I have had great fear imagining he might not be able to get one. Because that would be it for us. But I feel God telling me not to fear. I think Robert has grounds as good as mine, as his wife also became a different person immediately after the wedding, almost as quick as mine… If it turned out that one of us could not annul we woud cut off the relationship. Boy would that be hard but God would sustain us. But I think that is not going to happen. I have been praying all along that if my love was going to hurt Robert in any way that He would take it away.

Continuing to stay chaste in this relationship is without question. Sex belongs in marriage. We both agree and both want to please God.

But what is driving me a little crazy right now the whole thing about thoughts! I really don’t know if I am not being chaste. I know thoughts matter! I don’t know if I am making them matter too much. DexUK wrote:
But you should be careful not to dwell in your desires such that you begin to experience lust…
What is lust? To me that’s just carnal desire. I feel love and am imagining, at times, the marital embrace, after marriage, as an expression of love for someone I want to always be with exclusively and wants to always be with me exclusively. Is that unchaste? Am I supposed to never think of that??

Other times, a whole lot of times, I am thinking of, as I said, how much I desire his touch, his slightest touch, or to embrace him, how lovely it will be to embrace. How I just want to sit with him leaning against him. His hands in mine.

I have never focused on this stuff so much! I just have a great need to physically express my love with touch and a need to experience his physical expression of love and affection. And I am seeing him in a week, after these months, so its much on my mind.

True, Bookcat, i am not free to marry but every strict priest has said I did not have a marriage, adn I know that is true. Also nor did Robert. We have good reason to believe annulments are forthcoming. We won’t marry unless we get them. The chances of that are slim and we will follow the Church on that. You wrote:
(and of course one would have to avoid unchaste thoughts even if one was not presumed married…turn your thoughts elsewhere…to chaste subjects like snow or puppies or what not…)
Lately I have been trying to not think of Robert so that I don’t do that. I purposefully think of any other things but him. After a few days of this I am tired, sad and frustrated. So it makes me wonder if I am even supposed to be making this effort! Am I being over-scrupulous with my thoughts??

Its like saying, once you love someone so much that you physically desire to think of them, you cannot think of them anymore until you marry?
Surely if you plan to marry (and will only do so if the Church permits it) and until that happens you don’t act in any physical way on your thoughts by doing anything un-chaste it really can’t be a problem, can it ? We all occassionally think things we shouldn’t in many spheres of life, surely the virtue is not acting on those thoughts…
Well this is what I am wondering.
As far as I can see the only difference is that with thoughts of this kind, it would be a sin to endulge them because you find it physically pleasurable to do so and I guess you also have to be extra careful what you do together in case an otherwise innocent act becomes sexually charged.
Well, I DO find it physically pleasurable to indulge in these thoughts. I feels lovely to imagine all kinds of chaste touch. Hugging, hand-holding. sitting close, being in his presence and physically touching, knowing I love him and he loves me and neither of us wants to be anywhere else right then. I feel a rush of peaceful pleasure thinking that.

I have questioned Robert about what if things went further or things got too sexually charged and he assures me this will not be a problem. We are both committed to waiting as I ahve said. I am really trusting in him to take charge of that and he knows it. He won’t let me or God down.

To a non-Catholic or a non-Christian this whole line of thought sounds crazy. Even my Naturapath said that the current health complication I am having, on a special cleanse diet i am on for health, is caused because of the hormones activating problems, because of hormones racing through my body “with no place to go”. He is not a Christian, and the implication is, you are frustrating yourself, and its not natural. Its what our culture thinks of chastity: we are repressed. But I know that what does not make sense to the world does make sense to the Maker of this world. I just don’t understand how His ways work in this matter.s

Well, trying to not enjoy pleasurable thoughts of anticipation of embraces and hand-holding, which in my mind is chaste, is making me feel repressed.

And when I thought about the marital embrace - I am trying hard no to dwell on this, I do think its wise to limit that though - is that unchaste? It seems one has to think of it sometimes!
 
If I were in such a situation – I would recall the reality that we are presumed to be married…and think and act accordingly…

Do I as a married man hold hands “romantically” with another woman? No. etc etc…

One word:

Friendship

Or better…three:

Prudent Christian Friendship

Submitting the future to the Church and God.

As to sins of thought…remember one can sin in ones thoughts long before any actions.

CCC: 1853 Sins can be distinguished according to their objects, as can every human act; or according to the virtues they oppose, by excess or defect; or according to the commandments they violate. They can also be classed according to whether they concern God, neighbor, or oneself; they can be divided into spiritual and carnal sins, or again as sins in thought, word, deed, or omission. The root of sin is in the heart of man, in his free will, according to the teaching of the Lord: "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man."128 But in the heart also resides charity, the source of the good and pure works, which sin wounds.
 
If I were in such a situation – I would recall the reality that we are presumed to be married…and think and act accordingly…

Do I as a married man hold hands “romantically” with another woman? No. etc etc…

One word:

Friendship

Or better…three:

Prudent Christian Friendship

Submitting the future to the Church and God.
Wow. I ahve never heard of this perspective. We have already been only friends for some years now via email and have discussed everything under the sun and know each others lives and thoughts very well. We are friends. Its only recently that we suddenly realize that what we feel is much more than friends. How do you change nothing at all when you realize that? How do you shut your feelings off?

Hand-holding wrong, really? Sitting-close?
As to sins of thought…remember one can sin in ones thoughts long before any actions.

CCC: 1853 Sins can be distinguished according to their objects, as can every human act; or according to the virtues they oppose, by excess or defect; or according to the commandments they violate. They can also be classed according to whether they concern God, neighbor, or oneself; they can be divided into spiritual and carnal sins, or again as sins in thought, word, deed, or omission. The root of sin is in the heart of man, in his free will, according to the teaching of the Lord: "For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a man."128 But in the heart also resides charity, the source of the good and pure works, which sin wounds.
Well yes,that is why I started this thread. What is affection, what is lust? I don’t think its lust I am feeling
It never occurred to me that I could not date chastely now.

In confession the priests did not say this. Both priests asked me if I was free to marry, and recommended seeking annulment. I didn’t do that yet because I was waiting for Robert to indicate clearly he was thinking this way. He recently has. Neither priest asked if I was free to “date” - just marry, neither questioned this friendship-with-feelings, or warned me not to date. I did make it clear that this is and will be a chaste relationship, that we both already have strong stands to adhere to the Church rulings for sex in marriage only. But neither priest - I know one for a fact is very strict - mentioned no dating… So that is why this has me surprised. Maybe they didn’t because I told them that three different priests when I converted and was still married and had no intention of divorce said that my marriage was not a marriage?
 
Wow. I ahve never heard of this perspective. We have already been only friends for some years now via email and have discussed everything under the sun and know each others lives and thoughts very well. We are friends. Its only recently that we suddenly realize that what we feel is much more than friends. How do you change nothing at all when you realize that? How do you shut your feelings off?

Hand-holding wrong, really? Sitting-close?
One can discipline ones feelings, thoughts, actions --just like I must do if I meet some girl I am attracted to…or am friends with a girl other than my wife.

catholic.com/quickquestions/without-an-annulment-is-it-ok-to-date-as-long-as-we-are-chaste

(these things are better discussed in a more “live” fashon --I would suggest giving the apologist line a call at Catholic Answers–they are very nice and will be glad to discuss things at length)
 
I very much understand the difficulty of the situation you are in (and the emotional difficulties involved)…hence it can be very helpful as I noted above that you talk with a “live” apologist at Catholic Answers …the forum…consisting of simply writing posts and reading them is not the always the best way to go…and in this sort of matter it is better to talk live.

I will though add another link here it is from the Senior Apologist at Catholic Answers:

This will throw more light one the matter and goes into some detail: jimmyakin.com/2006/03/dating_without_.html

God bless!
 
…(these things are better discussed in a more “live” fashon --I would suggest giving the apologist line a call at Catholic Answers–they are very nice and will be glad to discuss things at length)
There is a phone line you can call, where you can talk to an apologist live? (I don’t want to discuss this on radio air if that is what you mean)…
 
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