Are there 2 Covenants?

[sacramentdivine]

Are there 2 Covenants, one for the Jews and one for Gentiles? A friend of mine told me that Jesus never intended to start a new religion and that he was a “Jewish reformer”. Furthermore, he said it was anti-semitic to say that the Jews “made a mistake” in not recognizing Jesus as the Messiah. What does the Church have to say concerning all this?

 

[kristanl]

Well when Jesus came he replaced the OT covenant with the Jews, with the NT covenant with the Gentiles. For example, baptism taking the place of circumcision… the Eucharist becoming the Passover meal.

 

[Big_Ro]

I have heard this many times myself. As for myself, I am undecided, but find the argument persuasive. I don’t find anything in scripture or in the actions of the first apostles that indicate a desire to leave the Jewish fold. In fact, unless I mistaken, this was central debate in the early church. From everything we know, Christ was a devoted Jew. Except for marriage, he adhered to all the requirements of a Jew. Paul was a zealous Jew and I’m not aware of any words or deeds attributed to Paul where renounces his membership. Todays meditation on the daily reading also describes many of the other apostles as being devoted Jews. A very important debate between Paul and James was whether or not the followers of Christ were required to undergo circumcision (sp?). I take from that that they still considered themselves Jews. It wasn’t until quite a while after Christ, in Antioch, that the word Christian was even used to describe the followers of Christ. So, there’s at least a prima facia case that Christ may not have intended to form a new Church. The problem is that how could Christ who was of the same mind as God have allowed for an unintended outcome? Perhaps the answer lies in our feeble ability to understand the grander purpose of God. I always remember that it is God’s intention to unify all mankind.

I know I’m being overly verbose (it’s a disease), I wanted to also address the issue about whether Jews recognize Christ as the Messiah. I thought this was a well settled fact. I have not had the pleasure of having very many Jews as friends or acquaintances. Worse, the few Jews I have known didn’t seem to practice their religion. So, I only what I’ve read and it has mostly been from a Christian perspective. As I understand it, the Jews do not accept that Jesus was the “true Messiah”. They believe that we Christians have misinterpreted the prophecies in order to fit our beliefs. We are essentially heretics. As Christians, we believe that the Jews are simply blind to the obvious. They are basically unreformed. My personal belief is that we are one faith with a major disagreement. However, I can’t see how stating that the schism exists is anti-semetic. I know there are some Jews that accept Christ as the messiah without renouncing their Judaism. I believe that I am essentilaly a Jew even though I don’t know the first thing about being Jewish. I am Catholic and happy for it. Anyway, this is a good discussion and I hope to learn something from it.

 

[Big_Ro]

Well when Jesus came he replaced the OT covenant with the Jews, with the NT covenant with the Gentiles. For example, baptism taking the place of circumcision… the Eucharist becoming the Passover meal.

I think you may be laboring under a misconception. I myself labored under this misconception for many years. As a consequence, I ignored the OT. Christ did not come to defeat the Law, he came to fullfill it. The Law is in tact, fully in force. The promise and intent that Christ came for the Jews and that slavation through faith in him is still open to the Jews and is not put asunder by any action or teaching of Christ. The Law as it is referred to throughout the Bible always refers to the Law of Moses or more commonly known as the Ten Commandments. Christ did, however, restore and reform the true intent, purpose, and meaning of the Law. Now, it is true that the promise which was originally meant strictly for the Jews was thrown open to Gentiles, such as myself. However, I think that if we closely read the words of the prophets, we will see that it was always the intent. Again, Christ fullfills the prophesy.

I am so grateful for having been corrected in my misunderstanding. I now understand so much more fully the message that scripture has for me. I now have become so much mroe fully Catholic than ever before in my life. It is impossible to fully understand the messge of Chrsit w/o understanding what came before.

 

[tonyrey]

I However, I can’t see how stating that the schism exists is anti-Semitic.

You are right. Anti-Semitism is based on race rather than religion…

 

[chosen_people]

You are right. Anti-Semitism is based on race rather than religion…

Well not only have you turned Jews from a people into a race but you have now eliminated two thousand years of religious anti-Semitism.

The interconnection between Judaism and the Catholic Church is a result of Christianity viewing itself as a redefinition (the Christian would perhaps say refinement) of Judaism. This is of course not a mutual perspective, Judaism in no way defines itself in relationship to Christianity and has no theological interconnection with Christianity. .

The basis of Judaism is the concept of God, Torah and Messiah. Even those with the most rudimentary knowledge of these concepts in Judaism understands that the concept of a “Jewish Christian” or a “Jew who believes in Jesus” is, in the Jewish view, at best an oxymoron. Even structurally the two religions are diametrically opposite.

That is not to say that Christianity defining itself in relationship to Judaism has not had a profound effect on Jews. It has. Unfortunately in a negative way. This Christian redefinition placed the Jews in a position where their acceptance of the redefinition would give it undeniable validity. Every new monotheistic religion was by necessity a redefinition of the Jewish covenant. Early Christians, Mohamed and Luther have turned to the Jews to be accepted by them. The Jewish rejection was invariably met with intense animosity and even violence. The Jews rejection not only was a Jewish stand that the redefinition was invalid, it prevented the new religion’s goal of universality. Christianity and Islam which swept the masses of pagans toward the concept of monotheism, both held to a principle that all must be it’s adherents. Jewish refusal was the to make that goal of universality unobtainable. Therein lies the crux of religious anti-Semitism

 

[Big_Ro]

Well, I certainly want to apologize if anything I said is perceived as anti-semetic. And, I certainly understand that there has been enmity between the religions and it has often escalated into violence. I agree that it is God’s purpose to unite all mankind and I look forward to seeing how he get’s that done. For me, as an ordinary human being, it’s difficult to see how, but I have faith it shall be done. Still, could you address how simply stating that this schism exists is in and of itself anti-semetic.

 

[ryanoneil]

Are there 2 Covenants, one for the Jews and one for Gentiles? A friend of mine told me that Jesus never intended to start a new religion and that he was a “Jewish reformer”. Furthermore, he said it was anti-semitic to say that the Jews “made a mistake” in not recognizing Jesus as the Messiah. What does the Church have to say concerning all this?

According to Paul, there is not a 2 Covenant view of salvation.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel. It is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: for Jew first, and then Greek. (Rom 1:16)

Paul is thinking of Christ and the New Covenant when he quotes the words of (Is 59:20; 27:9; Jer 31:33) here:

I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not become wise (in) your own estimation: a hardening has come upon Israel in part, until the full number of the Gentiles comes in, and thus all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion, he will turn away godlessness from Jacob; and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” (Rom 11:25-27)

Those who support a 2 Covenant view say “the Deliverer” refers to Yahweh rather than Christ, and that the “covenant” of forgiveness is the Mosiac covenant rather than the New Covenant.