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Michael_Paul
Guest
If there are, I have a couple of questions for you. First, what do you mean that Jesus had a fallen nature. Second do you believe that Jesus and the Archangel Michael are the same?
Mike
Mike
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Michael_Paul
Guest
Michael Paul:
MP
I’m just trying to keep this on the first page for a while in hops that an adventist will read it.
MP
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Michael_Paul
Guest
I guess there are no Adventists who read this forum or there are and they just don’t want to admit to this but sadly, the SDAs teach that Jesus and Michael the ArchAngel are one and the same person. 
I thought that those who read this thread would like to know that.
MP
I thought that those who read this thread would like to know that.MP
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ak29
Guest
I thought it was Jehovah Witnesses that believed that.
But if I were you I would just search Seventh Day Adventist in the forum search bar. there have been a few lengthy discussion about SDAs and their teachings.
God Bless
Andrew.
But if I were you I would just search Seventh Day Adventist in the forum search bar. there have been a few lengthy discussion about SDAs and their teachings.
God Bless
Andrew.
F
flameburns623
Guest
Michael Paul:
Why are you looking for Seventh-day Adventists on the Latter-Day Saints subforum? They are similar only insofar as they each have hyphenated names which include the word “day”. Try the general Non-Catholic Religions subforum.
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ahimsaman72
Guest
Michael Paul:
Maybe Adventists believe the same thing, I don’t know. Just thought I would give my puny two cents worth.
Peace…
I’m not Adventist, but have a good friend who is. He definitely believes that Jesus and Michael are identical. However, I know nothing of Jesus having a fallen nature. Jehovah’s Witnesses (which is an offshoot of Adventists) do not believe in the divinity of Jesus.
Maybe Adventists believe the same thing, I don’t know. Just thought I would give my puny two cents worth.
Peace…
E
Egg4christ
Guest
as for the fallen nature, i have this from the SDA website(adventist.org) Check under the section “fundamental beliefs”
I highlighted the parts that pertain to us–
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God’s power and was attested as God’s promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)
As for the stuff on Michael, i frequent an adventist board, and have never heard of this. Furthermore, it doesn’t show up in th “fundamental beliefs” section. It could be somewhere else, you’re welcome to look.
I just hate to see a religion bashed for something they don’t preach.
Now, certain individuals may be confused, but then again, that’s the case all around. each of us has someone that didn’t quite get it right.
I highlighted the parts that pertain to us–
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God’s power and was attested as God’s promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)
As for the stuff on Michael, i frequent an adventist board, and have never heard of this. Furthermore, it doesn’t show up in th “fundamental beliefs” section. It could be somewhere else, you’re welcome to look.
I just hate to see a religion bashed for something they don’t preach.
Now, certain individuals may be confused, but then again, that’s the case all around. each of us has someone that didn’t quite get it right.
J
jsenner
Guest
Historic Adventists usually believe that Jesus had a fallen nature like Adam had after the fall. The more “evangelical” Adventists usually believe that Jesus had a sinless nature like Adam had before the fall.
And it’s official SDA teaching that Jesus = Michael.
I grew up Historic SDA and am in RCIA now…
Jeremiah
And it’s official SDA teaching that Jesus = Michael.
I grew up Historic SDA and am in RCIA now…
Jeremiah
L
lisa2
Guest
Michael Paul:
Jehovah is the Supreme Being. Jesus is the Son of God, a created being. Christ is believed to have originally existed in a pre-human state as the Archangel Michael. He later took human except that he was sinless at birth and remained so throughout his earthly life.
hope that helps some
lisa
Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that Christ was God’s first creation, … the reincarnation of Michael the archangel.
Jehovah is the Supreme Being. Jesus is the Son of God, a created being. Christ is believed to have originally existed in a pre-human state as the Archangel Michael. He later took human except that he was sinless at birth and remained so throughout his earthly life.
hope that helps some
lisa
C
Catholic_Dude
Guest
Here is what I found on:
egwdatabase.whiteestate.org
its all of Ellen Whites writings, here is what I found on the search menu here is what she said:
Christ was not only the leader of the Hebrews in the wilderness–the Angel in whom was the name of Jehovah, and who, veiled in the cloudy pillar, went before the host–but it was He who gave the law to Israel. [SEE APPENDIX, NOTE 7.] Amid the awful glory of Sinai, Christ declared in the hearing of all the people the ten precepts of His Father’s law. It was He who gave to Moses the law engraved upon the tables of stone. {PP 366.2}
It says to see appendix note 7 so I went…and saw this:
NOTE 7. PAGE 366. THAT THE ONE WHO SPOKE THE LAW, WHO CALLED MOSES INTO THE MOUNT AND TALKED WITH HIM, WAS OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, IS EVIDENT FROM THE FOLLOWING CONSIDERATIONS: {PP 761.3} CHRIST IS THE ONE THROUGH WHOM GOD HAS AT ALL TIMES REVEALED HIMSELF TO MAN. “BUT TO US THERE IS BUT ONE GOD, THE FATHER, OF WHOM ARE ALL THINGS, AND WE IN HIM; AND ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST, BY WHOM ARE ALL THINGS, AND WE BY HIM.” 1 CORINTHIANS 8:6. “THIS IS HE [MOSES], THAT WAS IN THE CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS WITH THE ANGEL WHICH SPAKE TO HIM IN THE MOUNT SINAI, AND WITH OUR FATHERS: WHO RECEIVED THE LIVELY ORACLES TO GIVE UNTO US.” ACTS 7:38. THIS ANGEL WAS THE ANGEL OF GOD’S PRESENCE (ISAIAH 63:9), THE ANGEL IN WHOM WAS THE NAME OF THE GREAT JEHOVAH (EXODUS 23:20-23). THE EXPRESSION CAN REFER TO NO OTHER THAN THE SON OF GOD. {PP 761.4}
Wow, BUT…
On the official SDA webpage adventist.org it says:
2. The Trinity:
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)
**4. The Son: **
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God’s power and was attested as God’s promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)
It looks like things have changed over the years. At least in this case it was for the better.
egwdatabase.whiteestate.org
its all of Ellen Whites writings, here is what I found on the search menu here is what she said:
Christ was not only the leader of the Hebrews in the wilderness–the Angel in whom was the name of Jehovah, and who, veiled in the cloudy pillar, went before the host–but it was He who gave the law to Israel. [SEE APPENDIX, NOTE 7.] Amid the awful glory of Sinai, Christ declared in the hearing of all the people the ten precepts of His Father’s law. It was He who gave to Moses the law engraved upon the tables of stone. {PP 366.2}
It says to see appendix note 7 so I went…and saw this:
NOTE 7. PAGE 366. THAT THE ONE WHO SPOKE THE LAW, WHO CALLED MOSES INTO THE MOUNT AND TALKED WITH HIM, WAS OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, IS EVIDENT FROM THE FOLLOWING CONSIDERATIONS: {PP 761.3} CHRIST IS THE ONE THROUGH WHOM GOD HAS AT ALL TIMES REVEALED HIMSELF TO MAN. “BUT TO US THERE IS BUT ONE GOD, THE FATHER, OF WHOM ARE ALL THINGS, AND WE IN HIM; AND ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST, BY WHOM ARE ALL THINGS, AND WE BY HIM.” 1 CORINTHIANS 8:6. “THIS IS HE [MOSES], THAT WAS IN THE CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS WITH THE ANGEL WHICH SPAKE TO HIM IN THE MOUNT SINAI, AND WITH OUR FATHERS: WHO RECEIVED THE LIVELY ORACLES TO GIVE UNTO US.” ACTS 7:38. THIS ANGEL WAS THE ANGEL OF GOD’S PRESENCE (ISAIAH 63:9), THE ANGEL IN WHOM WAS THE NAME OF THE GREAT JEHOVAH (EXODUS 23:20-23). THE EXPRESSION CAN REFER TO NO OTHER THAN THE SON OF GOD. {PP 761.4}
Code:
AGAIN: CHRIST IS CALLED THE WORD OF GOD. JOHN 1:1-3. HE IS SO CALLED BECAUSE GOD GAVE HIS REVELATIONS TO MAN IN ALL AGES THROUGH CHRIST. IT WAS HIS SPIRIT THAT INSPIRED THE PROPHETS. 1 PETER 1:10, 11. **HE WAS REVEALED TO THEM AS THE ANGEL OF JEHOVAH, THE CAPTAIN OF THE LORD'S HOST, MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL.** {PP 761.5}On the official SDA webpage adventist.org it says:
2. The Trinity:
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)
**4. The Son: **
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles He manifested God’s power and was attested as God’s promised Messiah. He suffered and died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19; John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1 Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)
It looks like things have changed over the years. At least in this case it was for the better.
A
adventistnomore
Guest
No…
Ellen White was always a trinitarian, though most early Adventists weren’t. She, as Adventists today, believed Michael the Archangel was another title for Christ, who is very God. Adventists today don’t believe Christ was an “angel” in terms of being a created being, but that he often appears as the Angel (or messenger) of YHWH.
It takes some stretch to get to that conclusion, but suffice to say Adventists affirm the Godhead and true/absolute divinity of Christ, though they identify him with Michael the Archangel.
Ellen White was always a trinitarian, though most early Adventists weren’t. She, as Adventists today, believed Michael the Archangel was another title for Christ, who is very God. Adventists today don’t believe Christ was an “angel” in terms of being a created being, but that he often appears as the Angel (or messenger) of YHWH.
It takes some stretch to get to that conclusion, but suffice to say Adventists affirm the Godhead and true/absolute divinity of Christ, though they identify him with Michael the Archangel.
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flameburns623
Guest
Some Evangelicals posit that The Angel of the Lord, (occaisionally abbreviated “TAL”, as in Frank Perreti’s novels), mentioned repeatedly in the Old Testament was in fact a Christophany, a pre-Incarnational manifestation of Christ. See the following links:
gotquestions.org/angel-of-the-Lord.html
conservativeonline.org/journals/01_03_journal/1997v1n3_id06.htm
lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2485
Another tradition suggests that The Angel of the Lord is Michael. Fairly persuasive cases can be established for either view and some opted to halve the difference between them. It is a short leap of logic to understand that if TAL is Christ and if TAL is Michael, then Michael is Christ. This was never intended among Trinitarians to suggest that Christ was a created Being, but rather that Michael is the uncreated Christ.
Hoe this helps!
M
Micael
Guest
While I’m no expert on SDA, I must attempt to be fair. I don’t believe SDA believe in this concept of Jesus=Michael. I think “jsenner” must be confused with 2nd Adventist or another type of “Adventist” as the founder of Jehovah’s Witnesses was one just before he created JWs.
If I’m wrong let me know, but as far as I know specific SD Adventist have always been Trinitarians.
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Evan
Guest
In God’s communication with Israel like on Sinai, some of the Church Fathers (Justin Martyr for one) believed it was the preincarnational Word of God. Christ is God so a Christophany is also a Theophany. But the Son was not Christ until the incarnation, Christ meaning Messiah or Anointed. But He was eternally the Son and the Word of God.
Justin believed that all communication with God is communication from the Father, through the Son = The Word of God.
In the OT whenever God is mentioned, we can look with hindsite and know that it was a Trinitarian event. God had not revealed His nature, but He was always a Trinity. The Jews did not worship the Father, they worship God. And we believe that the God they worship is Three Persons.
We believe that whereever one Person of the Trinity is present, all are present. God cannot be divided.
Justin believed that all communication with God is communication from the Father, through the Son = The Word of God.
In the OT whenever God is mentioned, we can look with hindsite and know that it was a Trinitarian event. God had not revealed His nature, but He was always a Trinity. The Jews did not worship the Father, they worship God. And we believe that the God they worship is Three Persons.
We believe that whereever one Person of the Trinity is present, all are present. God cannot be divided.
F
flameburns623
Guest
When Adventism was still a ‘movement’ and not officially established as a ‘denomination’, there were some who dabbled in Arianism. The SDA Church, as a denomination, has always officially been Trinitarian.
So far as Michael and Christ: as I explained, the issue has to do with Christophanies in the Old Testament: some perfectly-Trinitarian Christians have speculated that in the Old Testament Christ manifested Himself as the Angel of the Lord several times. Since Michael the Archangel is also closely identified with the Angel of the Lord, it was a short leap to the idea that appearances of Michael equal Christophanies. It is NOT that Christ was an angel in His pre-existence but that some beings called ‘angels’ in the OT were actually Christ.
By the way–the name ‘Michael’ means “who is like God?” Some think this is a declarative sentence: “Who is like God!” And the word for ‘angel’ simply means ‘son of God’. Doesn’t prove that appearances of the Archangel Michael were Christophanies, but provides some supprting evidence if one already buys into the idea.
The idea is MUCH different from that of the JW’s, who believe that Christ was an angel prior to His incarnation but was never God. Unfortunately some get these two issues confused.
M
Mickey
Guest
Today is the solemn feast day of St Michael the Archangel in the Byzantine Catholic Church!
GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
A
ahimsaman72
Guest
I was always taught and believed in the Christophanies, i.e.(appearances indicated by the term, ‘Angel of the Lord’) in the Bible and even that the Jehovah of the OT is actually Jesus Christ. This was taught at more than one of the Southern Baptist congregations I was a member of.
A good example is when an ‘angel’ appeared to Abraham and told him he would have children. Sarah was listening in the tent and laughed when she heard this. That ‘angel’ was told to me to be Christ himself in the ‘appearance’ of an angel.
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