Are there people that are no eligible for salvation

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oneGODoneCHURCH

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This was posted on another tread

“With respects to ’ , , , the offer of (salvation) is not made for all to either accept or reject.’ I disagree…however, in an interest of staying on topic, I will not comment further.”

The person is saying that not all people are to be offered the Gospel and the promise of Salvation. I say that the whole world is invited to come to the Cross and repent of their sins and ask for the saving Grace of Christ. it is up to the person to either except it or reject it and set about there life in accordance with that decision.
 
I would say salvation is offered to all men, just not to all explicitly.

A Peruvian Indian in 1000 AD cannot know of Christ explicitly.

Salvation for them, means seeking the Divine Will and Truth in as much as is possible according to reason. If they do this, Christ can impart them sanctifying grace through their implicit desire for Baptism. Then at their death, Christ reveals Himself as the Savior they did not know explicitly while on earth, but that they did know implicitly in their search for the Divine Truth, which is a search for Christ.

Put another way, Christ holds you accountable for what is reasonably possible given your individual circumstances: we are held by God to seek the truth in what is possible given where we live, our resources, time, etc. For those find Christ explicitly, they accept salvation explicitly.

For those who search but do not find Christ explicitly through no fault, the salvation they find is the truth they acquire that agrees with the Gospel, which Christ uses to save them.

does that help?
 
spauline said:
I would say salvation is offered to all men, just not to all explicitly.

A Peruvian Indian in 1000 AD cannot know of Christ explicitly.

Salvation for them, means seeking the Divine Will and Truth in as much as is possible according to reason. If they do this, Christ can impart them sanctifying grace through their implicit desire for Baptism. Then at their death, Christ reveals Himself as the Savior they did not know explicitly while on earth, but that they did know implicitly in their search for the Divine Truth, which is a search for Christ.

Put another way, Christ holds you accountable for what is reasonably possible given your individual circumstances: we are held by God to seek the truth in what is possible given where we live, our resources, time, etc. For those find Christ explicitly, they accept salvation explicitly.

For those who search but do not find Christ explicitly through no fault, the salvation they find is the truth they acquire that agrees with the Gospel, which Christ uses to save them.

does that help?
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I agree completely. thank you.
 
spauline said:
I would say salvation is offered to all men, just not to all explicitly.

A Peruvian Indian in 1000 AD cannot know of Christ explicitly.

Salvation for them, means seeking the Divine Will and Truth in as much as is possible according to reason. If they do this, Christ can impart them sanctifying grace through their implicit desire for Baptism. Then at their death, Christ reveals Himself as the Savior they did not know explicitly while on earth, but that they did know implicitly in their search for the Divine Truth, which is a search for Christ.

Put another way, Christ holds you accountable for what is reasonably possible given your individual circumstances: we are held by God to seek the truth in what is possible given where we live, our resources, time, etc. For those find Christ explicitly, they accept salvation explicitly.

For those who search but do not find Christ explicitly through no fault, the salvation they find is the truth they acquire that agrees with the Gospel, which Christ uses to save them.

does that help?
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This is a beautiful answer 👍 and I believe this is consistent with the Catholic Catechism. That being said, we are nevertheless called to be missionaries to bring the full truth of the gospel to those who have not heard the good news.

851 Missionary motivation. It is from God’s love for all men that the Church in every age receives both the obligation and the vigor of her missionary dynamism, “for the love of Christ urges us on.” Indeed, God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”; that is, God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth. Those who obey the prompting of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation. But the Church, to whom this truth has been entrusted, must go out to meet their desire, so as to bring them the truth. Because she believes in God’s universal plan of salvation, the Church must be missionary.
 
Robbinson said:
This is a beautiful answer 👍 and I believe this is consistent with the Catholic Catechism. That being said, we are nevertheless called to be missionaries to bring the full truth of the gospel to those who have not heard the good news.

851 Missionary motivation. It is from God’s love for all men that the Church in every age receives both the obligation and the vigor of her missionary dynamism, “for the love of Christ urges us on.” Indeed, God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”; that is, God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth. Those who obey the prompting of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation. But the Church, to whom this truth has been entrusted, must go out to meet their desire, so as to bring them the truth. Because she believes in God’s universal plan of salvation, the Church must be missionary.
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Amen! Point well made. For the less truth a person has, the less chance they have of attaining to salvation. In the same vein, degrees of error harm one’s potential to salvation by the very nature of their errors:

Revelation 11, speaking prophetically of Scripture and Tradition (IMHO :D)
“And if any man will harm them, in this manner must he be harmed!”
 
Thank you both. i had some one on another tread trying to say that God does not love everyone and that all are not invited to except it. I just did not see how this was possible.
 
I recall when Jesus got quite angry.re: child abuse…He then described a rather novel use of the mill stone and child molestors and a nearby stream. Certain offenses are then unforgiveable…as to death bed conversions,I have always been suspicious of those…after all .lets say in prison,an admitted murderer of say 5 people…is now 80 years old…cant eat or sleep or do anything much anymore…just looks forward to that pain pill every 24 hours…well he is no longer the same wise punk who cut short the lives of that family…sure he is ‘sorry’ we all would be…when Buggsy Siegal recieved a ‘pardon’ on his deathbed a scandal broke loose in the area…a long time murderer and thief…also had bad breath…was given a Catholic funeral because he felt sorry as he lay dieing…what of those movie actors who played horrible murderers in movies and glorified them…how many kids copied that lifestyle etc etc…tough call
 
Nino said:
I recall when Jesus got quite angry.re: child abuse…He then described a rather novel use of the mill stone and child molestors and a nearby stream. Certain offenses are then unforgiveable…as to death bed conversions,I have always been suspicious of those…after all .lets say in prison,an admitted murderer of say 5 people…is now 80 years old…cant eat or sleep or do anything much anymore…just looks forward to that pain pill every 24 hours…well he is no longer the same wise punk who cut short the lives of that family…sure he is ‘sorry’ we all would be…when Buggsy Siegal recieved a ‘pardon’ on his deathbed a scandal broke loose in the area…a long time murderer and thief…also had bad breath…was given a Catholic funeral because he felt sorry as he lay dieing…what of those movie actors who played horrible murderers in movies and glorified them…how many kids copied that lifestyle etc etc…tough call
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But was not the Thief on the cross also a death bed conversion? Does it not really come down to what is in there heart at the time? I would not feel comfortable denying anyone a proper funeral if they made their confession and asked forgiveness At that point only that person and God Knows the truth of their honest feelings.
 
May be generally speaking the Evangelicals in U.S. are different from the conservative Evangelicals where I live.
Evangelicals in the area where I live are extremely select society.
For many of them the Mankind is divided on two types of people.
I think it can be called ‘’ eligible and not-eligible’’
But I have a few examples :
  • The Pastor of the youth Evangelical community was ex-communicated from the Evangelical Brotherhood , for the practice of ‘’ not- Christian music ‘’ in the Divine service.
    -The new-converted brother was ex-communicated from the Baptist community for not being able to stop smoking. ( he used to smoke for many years before )
  • Another new-converted sister was excommunicated for drinking the wine on some bodies birthday celebration. Her crime against the Baptist community was that she believed that the wine as says Ecclesiast rejoices the heart of man.
  • The new-converted alcohol addict was ex-communicated for his fall in drinking sin again.
    ( actually after excommunication he started to drink much more , and has got more addiction than before. )
  • The Baptist sister was excommunicated because she was not afraid to love and fall in love with a Greek-Catholic man. She was ex-communicated because she had no right to get married with not-Evangelical…
  • I can imagine the new-converted teenager from unchristian family , who is left for the struggle with his body day and night , by the feelings and imaginations , and he hears always from the pulpit about the hated Essau and loved Jacob , about the chosen ( the once who live in comfortable Calvinism or Arminianism ) and the damned ( the once who always feel the burning conscious guilt and starts to believe and abide in the constant depressions
    -that they are not saved )
Are all these people not eligible for salvation ?

I think even if they had been forced to believe that they are not eligible for salvation , but they are eligible for salvation in God’s eyes !

I think that in reality there are so called physical invalids , crippled , and weak , and there are some spiritual invalids , crippled and weak.
Are they not eligible for salvation ?
They are the once whom Christ calls the first !
And for the sake of them Christ came on earth !
And these… often traumatized spiritual orphans …are the first whom Christ calls for salvation and calls ‘eligible’
  • We read in Shakespeare that ‘ the devil can cite scripture for his purpose’.
  • I remember from Goethe ( the German writer ) , when he says about that '‘ poisonous '‘staff
    in the religion .
    I think that that ‘ poisonous ‘ is that confirmation for one to believe that there are the people who are not eligible for salvation , and of course – you are one of those people.
    God forbid us to think like that.
    Let the God of Hope and Faith will strengthen our Hope and Faith !
 
oneGODoneCHURCH;:
But was not the Thief on the cross also a death bed conversion?
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In one of the pseudopigraphia, Dimas is from the family that looked after Jesus, when he was in Egypt. Prior to the Crucifixion, Dimas repented of his sins. He cry on the cross was for reassurance that he would meet Jesus in Heaven that night.

I’ve forgotten which of the pseudopigrpahia it is in. 😦

xan

jonathon
 
jblake said:
In one of the pseudopigraphia, Dimas is from the family that looked after Jesus, when he was in Egypt. Prior to the Crucifixion, Dimas repented of his sins. He cry on the cross was for reassurance that he would meet Jesus in Heaven that night.

I’ve forgotten which of the pseudopigrpahia it is in. 😦

xan

jonathon
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in the Acts of Pilate he is mentioned by name, but i do not recall any mention of prior repentance and even so how much prior the night before?

I guess what I am trying to say is that even it if is on your death bed. If you come to true repentance I think God will forgive you.
 
oneGODoneCHURCH;:
in the Acts of Pilate he is mentioned by name,
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  • Acts of Pilate* doesn’t give the life story of Dimas. The text I read did. (The only other thing I can remember, is that I read it alongside The Gospel of Judas, back around 1990.)
xan

jonathon
 
Here’s one: In yesterday’s readings God said through Paul in the first letter to Corinth chapter 6 vs. 3 "Do you not know that we will judge angels? "
In other words, we will join Christ in the judgment of the world.

How can Jesus allow any person whose heart is not His own in on this ultimate task? Imagine the risk of vengeance which isn’t Christ-like at all!

We are called to SHOW forgiveness because we REALLY and honestly forgive. Our heart has to change to that of Christ’s heart so that the possibility exists for the hearts of those who are forgiven to also change.

In today’s readings God says through Paul we better hurry up in getting Christ’s heart inside of ourselves. Time is waning.
 
I agree that in some specific cases , the Apostolic Institution is also denies the eucharistia for some unworthy Catholics.
But the Apostolic Institution does not have the predestination doctrine and the Apostolic Institution does not practice that type of absurd legalism , which in my opinion , brings harm to the spiritual psycho .

I remember a few years ago , I had read the article .
In Russian Siberia , some dog breeders used to train the dogs for the rich people.
The puppy dogs were from the noble breeds.
The bull terriers and bulldogs .
They tested the worthy puppies by looking at their abilities as a puppies.
The bulldog puppies who proved themselves week , in the water , in the way they behaved , those puppies were drowned in the water.
The stronger ones , had been used for the training , and later were for sale , as the guards of the rich peoples property.

What I mean by this example , is that the ‘ week puppies have the right for existence as well ‘
I do not agree with the society of the ‘ Chosen bull terriers ‘
What I mean is that even spiritually crippled have the right for existence and hope.
God is the God of hope and new chances !
Of course , this topic is actual , and vital for the Catholic Church as well.
But I am in the opposition to the fundamentalists understanding of ‘ the eligible ones ‘ by practicing that type of legalism.
 
Our fine and good Pope just said
(now I’m paraphrasing) If there is even a tiny tiny glimmer in a communicant’s heart, it seemed to him (the Pope) that we should be rather generous. Jesus, Himself, does work miracles.
 
LMP said:
Our fine and good Pope just said
(now I’m paraphrasing) If there is even a tiny tiny glimmer in a communicant’s heart, it seemed to him (the Pope) that we should be rather generous. Jesus, Himself, does work miracles.
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Amen
 
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