Are they in communion with Rome?

[water]

Is this the right forum to ask this question?

I sent an Email to vocations@sistersofcarmel.com to verify if they are indeed in communion with Rome. I am confused by the reply by the sisters:

Thank you for your email. Regarding our position, we are in communion with Rome and are not in any way connected with the schismatic groups that are sede-vacantist, consecrate their own bishops and ordain their own priests. Neither are we connected with the Society of St. Pius X, whose status with Rome is questionable at this time. We are under no ecclesiastical censures or excommunication. However, our status with our local bishop is indeed irregular, currently with no formal approval. We await the results in our own diocese of the Holy Father’s recent motu proprio, which supports the more liberal use of the Latin Mass and Liturgy.

Our Carmel is well known to the Holy See and to the Ecclesia Dei Commission in particular. We enjoy the friendship and support of priests and bishops throughout the world. We are doing our best uncompromisingly, in very difficult times for the Church and in the world, to be all we can for God, consecrated to Him and to His Church.

We hope this information is of assistance.

God bless you,
The Carmelite Sisters

Thanks.

 

[kage_ar]

You might contact the Diocese, they could provide you the information.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Is this the right forum to ask this question?

I sent an Email to vocations@sistersofcarmel.com to verify if they are indeed in communion with Rome. I am confused by the reply by the sisters:

Thanks.

Any Catholic Religious order, must obtain approval from the Bishop to exist in that dioceses, unless that group has Papal approval.

Approval from a Bishop isn’t permanent and can be removed by a new Bishop.

With Papal approval however, no Bishop can remove them, unless he goes through Rome and has good reason.

It may be in the case of these nuns, because there have been newly formed monasteries and religious orders shut down lately, they don’t want to take that chance and are looking for Papal approval.

Jim

 

[water]

Thank you, Jim.

 

[AdvanceAlways]

These Nuns are not in Communion and most likely will not be. They appear to be connected with the schismatic Servants of the Holy Family.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

There are two different realities to be considered here, as far as I can tell.

The first question is are they in communion with Rome. For a group like this, I would ask, who offers Mass for them (or do they go to a local parish)? In what appears to be their chapel, I don’t see an altar (which could well indicate that Mass is not offered there, so they go to a parish or another chapel…)

The second question is are they recognized by the Holy See or Local ordinary.

It is possible to be in communion with Rome without being a recognized order… A lot of small new groups start up and have to get going to be canonically erected. I am NO expert on this at all…

Maybe someone with canon law bacground could talk about this grey area - when a group is formed and seeks recognition?

 

[daughterofmary]

Ok, I have actually had experiences with this community. The Diocese calls them a “renegade” community.

They have the TLM and follow the 1962 Office (I believe). They follow older Carmelite Constitutions…(1904 Constitutions approved by Pius X?), not accepting more recent constitutinal reforms, like the other 2 old Constitution Carmels (each one in Spain and France)

But, they are having a bit of ‘problems’ at the moment, because their chaplains…practically next door, while not SSPX, are not in favour either with the local Bishop…not allowing local faithful to Communicate at the next door Community parish…yet the Carmelites themselves are still waiting for the 2005 request for official status from Rome.

Their status is in discussion, they would say they are…one would have to write them, then the bishop, to get the latest story…their Chaplains as of last year, are not considered to be in Communion with the ‘Conciliar Church’, kinda SSPX, but they would beg to differ.

You can call the Diocese and request information and they will send you a fax over (they sent me that) or they may have newer information for you since the Muto Proprio.

From what I understand these are Carmelite sisters and while they would claim, I believe, to be Discalced Carmelites they are not recognized as such.

They are such a wonderful community though (despite this). I wish and wish they were in union with Rome, but it seems to not be so. The fact that they do not accept the newer Constitutions is a bit troubling and confusing. They are a very strict Carmel and very good. When I read their daily schedule and the information they sent me I wanted to cry because of how wonderful it was. Possibly (and hopefully) in years to come all of this will be cleared up. We truly do need good sisters like these.

Pray for them!

 

[daughterofmary]

You may want to email them and ask them about their status as a Discalced Community because from what I understand they are not seen as such.

EDIT: not seen as such “officially”

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Ok, I have actually had experiences with this community. The Diocese calls them a “renegade” community.

They have the TLM and follow the 1962 Office (I believe). They follow older Carmelite Constitutions…(1904 Constitutions approved by Pius X?), not accepting more recent constitutinal reforms, like the other 2 old Constitution Carmels (each one in Spain and France)

But, they are having a bit of ‘problems’ at the moment, because their chaplains…practically next door, while not SSPX, are not in favour either with the local Bishop…not allowing local faithful to Communicate at the next door Community parish…yet the Carmelites themselves are still waiting for the 2005 request for official status from Rome.

Their status is in discussion, they would say they are…one would have to write them, then the bishop, to get the latest story…their Chaplains as of last year, are not considered to be in Communion with the ‘Conciliar Church’, kinda SSPX, but they would beg to differ.

You can call the Diocese and request information and they will send you a fax over (they sent me that) or they may have newer information for you since the Muto Proprio.

From what I understand these are Carmelite sisters and while they would claim, I believe, to be Discalced Carmelites they are not recognized as such.

They are such a wonderful community though (despite this). I wish and wish they were in union with Rome, but it seems to not be so. The fact that they do not accept the newer Constitutions is a bit troubling and confusing. They are a very strict Carmel and very good. When I read their daily schedule and the information they sent me I wanted to cry because of how wonderful it was. Possibly (and hopefully) in years to come all of this will be cleared up. We truly do need good sisters like these.

Pray for them!

We have to pray for them!

I have known of other small groups and “independant” chaplains who were reconciled. It certainly is a possibility.

They may not be recognized as OCD, but that would not preclude their existence as a group that follows the old constitutions.

I could be wrong, but I believe this is similar to the situation of the Fraternity of Saint Vincent Ferrar is like. They are a canonical group that follows the Dominican rule but, at this time, are not affiliated with the OP. (Though I believe efforts are being made to become affiliated…)

So with some finesse and negotiation (and a whole lot of prayer) it is possible for this situation to be reconciled.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Ok, I have actually had experiences with this community. The Diocese calls them a “renegade” community.

They have the TLM and follow the 1962 Office (I believe). They follow older Carmelite Constitutions…(1904 Constitutions approved by Pius X?), not accepting more recent constitutinal reforms, like the other 2 old Constitution Carmels (each one in Spain and France)

But, they are having a bit of ‘problems’ at the moment, because their chaplains…practically next door, while not SSPX, are not in favour either with the local Bishop…not allowing local faithful to Communicate at the next door Community parish…yet the Carmelites themselves are still waiting for the 2005 request for official status from Rome.

Their status is in discussion, they would say they are…one would have to write them, then the bishop, to get the latest story…their Chaplains as of last year, are not considered to be in Communion with the ‘Conciliar Church’, kinda SSPX, but they would beg to differ.

You can call the Diocese and request information and they will send you a fax over (they sent me that) or they may have newer information for you since the Muto Proprio.

From what I understand these are Carmelite sisters and while they would claim, I believe, to be Discalced Carmelites they are not recognized as such.

They are such a wonderful community though (despite this). I wish and wish they were in union with Rome, but it seems to not be so. The fact that they do not accept the newer Constitutions is a bit troubling and confusing. They are a very strict Carmel and very good. When I read their daily schedule and the information they sent me I wanted to cry because of how wonderful it was. Possibly (and hopefully) in years to come all of this will be cleared up. We truly do need good sisters like these.

Pray for them!

We have to pray for them!

I have known of other small groups and “independant” chaplains who were reconciled. It certainly is a possibility.

They may not be recognized as OCD, but that would not preclude their existence as a group that follows the old constitutions.

I could be wrong, but I believe this is similar to the situation of the Fraternity of Saint Vincent Ferrar is like. They are a canonical group that follows the Dominican rule but, at this time, are not affiliated with the OP. (Though I believe efforts are being made to become affiliated…)

So with some finesse and negotiation (and a whole lot of prayer) it is possible for this situation to be reconciled.