Are we all evil?

  • Thread starter Thread starter ceceswa
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

ceceswa

Guest
I have a friend that continues to argue the point with me that being human makes us evil. I know that since the fall of Adam and Eve we have sin, but I thought that we were still considered to be good because we were created by God. Maybe I’m wrong in my thinking. He pointed out Mark 10:17-18.

“As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.””

I guess my question is -As Catholics do we believe that people are good and do bad things, or people are bad and sometimes do good works?
Any further scripture that could be pointed out for or against this argument would be appreciated.
 
It’s nt hard to find - Genesis Chapter 1! Verse 26 and on basically says God created us in His image, and then he said that everything He created is very good. So we are clearly good, with evil tendencies due to the smear of original sin.

“Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.” 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.” 29 And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit; you shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every bird of the air, and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so. 31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.”
 
I know all of that in Genesis. I’m talking about after the fall. His argument is that through the fall man is now evil. Can you give me anywhere that it says we are still good after the fall?
 
Well, as I think about it, I guess there are a couple of answers. “Evil”, when defined as “What is our disposition, good or evil?”, is based on whether we have accepted the graces of Jesus Christ. If we have not, we are to be judged to hell for eternity, we certainly are not good when good is defined as “in full grace and communion with Jesus Christ”. There are quite a few references in the Bible as to God giving us sanctifying grace, like 2 Cor 9:8:

“And God is able to provide you with every blessing in abundance, so that you may always have enough of everything and may provide in abundance for every good work.”

God’s grace sanctifies us, and makes us more like Jesus Christ. So I think that would mean we are inherently good.

The hard part for me is that we are capable of choosing our destiny. Since we start out in original sin with no grace, maybe we are inherently bad when we are born?

 
40.png
ceceswa:
I know all of that in Genesis. I’m talking about after the fall. His argument is that through the fall man is now evil. Can you give me anywhere that it says we are still good after the fall?
Click to expand...
What about all the righteous men (and women) listed in the bible? Noah,Abraham, Lot, (I’m in a genesis bible study right now). The bible says these men are righteous. Being righteous means being “right with God” One who is evil is not right with God.

We are inclined to evil, it tempts us and sometimes consumes us, but God didn’t create evil. God continues to create us (He created you & me). That genesis passage isn’t the only time God creates. One of the psalms says, “You knitted me in my mother’s womb” This implies God did the creating here. God is all good, He can’t create evil.

Doesn’t the Incarnation, by the very fact that it happened, give some grace to being human? Jesus is fully human and fully divine. “He is like us in all things except sin” (Romans, I think?) He received His human nature from a human woman. Ask your friend if he believes if Jesus is evil. Jesus is man, born of a human mother, human flesh, tempted in the ways of humans, how can He be evil? He sanctifies being human by virture of His humanity.
 
As human beigns we all have the potential to be evil, and also the affiliation to perform evil acts, of course some are not as strong at controlling this. As human beings we have a duty to ensure that we do not embrace any parts that make us evil.

On a sub level Lord of the Flies brings this up, and it is actually quite interesting with them being children etc.
 
40.png
awalt:
The hard part for me is that we are capable of choosing our destiny. Since we start out in original sin with no grace, maybe we are inherently bad when we are born?
Click to expand...
This is the point that he keeps bringing up to me. We are born in original sin. We hide that with our clothing and Jesus died for us so that we could be saved because of our sinful ways.
I want to believe that we are good.
 
wisdom 3:5:
What about all the righteous men (and women) listed in the bible? Noah,Abraham, Lot, (I’m in a genesis bible study right now). The bible says these men are righteous. Being righteous means being “right with God” One who is evil is not right with God.

We are inclined to evil, it tempts us and sometimes consumes us, but God didn’t create evil. God continues to create us (He created you & me). That genesis passage isn’t the only time God creates. One of the psalms says, “You knitted me in my mother’s womb” This implies God did the creating here. God is all good, He can’t create evil.

Doesn’t the Incarnation, by the very fact that it happened, give some grace to being human? Jesus is fully human and fully divine. “He is like us in all things except sin” (Romans, I think?) He received His human nature from a human woman. Ask your friend if he believes if Jesus is evil. Jesus is man, born of a human mother, human flesh, tempted in the ways of humans, how can He be evil? He sanctifies being human by virture of His humanity.
Click to expand...
You have a lot of great points. I will commit these to memory and bring them up when I see him tomorrow. I’ll let you know if he has any counter to it. Thank you
 
I just want to throw a thought into this thread for you all to consider. It helped me understand the stain of original sin and the problem of evil.

What is sin? What is evil? Are they not the negation of good done and the negation of good itself?

Man strives for good. It is in his nature, for we are created good. We are also endowed with free will. We choose good, but not always the most good. The willfull choice of a lesser good over a greater good is how I understand sin. Evil would be the result… the negation of the good.

That’s how I think of it. I can see it in my own choices. There is always a good to be looked for in every one of my sins. Many a time it is the choosing of a material good over a spiritual good that gets me in trouble.

Anyway, hope this helps.

God bless,

Agricola
 
40.png
Agricola:
I just want to throw a thought into this thread for you all to consider. It helped me understand the stain of original sin and the problem of evil.

What is sin? What is evil? Are they not the negation of good done and the negation of good itself?

Man strives for good. It is in his nature, for we are created good. We are also endowed with free will. We choose good, but not always the most good. The willfull choice of a lesser good over a greater good is how I understand sin. Evil would be the result… the negation of the good.

That’s how I think of it. I can see it in my own choices. There is always a good to be looked for in every one of my sins. Many a time it is the choosing of a material good over a spiritual good that gets me in trouble.

Anyway, hope this helps.

God bless,

Agricola
Click to expand...
Seems like someone has read Perelandra. 🙂
 
said:
His response to this was:
We eceived our sinful nature through the inheritance of Adam through his fall. Since Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit through Mary he did not inherit the fall of nature. This makes him the only “good” human that God created. Please give me a rebuttle for this.
Click to expand...
 
Inasmuch as evil is merely the privation of some good which rightly should be present, then all ordinary human beings have evil. We come into the world with an absence of sanctifying grace. However, to **have ** evil is not to be evil.

Human nature and any nature, insofar as it is a nature, cannot **be ** evil, else it would not exist. To be evil is to have no being, because evil is nothing more than an absence of being. “To be evil” is a contradiction in terms.

Human nature after the Fall is has evil, in the sense that it is injured in its own natural powers, darkened in its intellect, weakened in its will, and subject to death and to the dominion of the devil (cf. Paul VI, Credo of the People of God). But to be injured, darkened, weakened, sinful and mortal is not to BE Evil.
 
40.png
ceceswa:
I have a friend that continues to argue the point with me that being human makes us evil. I know that since the fall of Adam and Eve we have sin, but I thought that we were still considered to be good because we were created by God. Maybe I’m wrong in my thinking. He pointed out Mark 10:17-18.

“As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up and knelt before him, and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone.””

I guess my question is -As Catholics do we believe that people are good and do bad things, or people are bad and sometimes do good works?
Any further scripture that could be pointed out for or against this argument would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
I understand it as we are good and we fall to evil in sin. We become good when we walk in the ways of the lord, his grace cleanses us of evil and returns us to the state before the fall of Adam and Eve, not completely but we are cleaner, impossible to be pure as man. We are never evil, but temtation soils us and seperates us from God’s grace.
 
Just out of curiosity, is your friend a Protestant? I ask because Protestants have a VERY different approach to evil and original sin than Catholics, and it would be helpful to know in order to give the best responses possible.

To my knowledge, the only Protestants that really come close to the theological stance of the Catholic Church as it regards evil and human nature are the Wesleyians (Methodists and Nazarenes, most notably). I’ve found it a LOT easier to discuss such matters with Nazarenes than I have with Reformation-based Protestants.

Peace and God bless!
 
Probably the best way to summarize all of Catholic doctrine on this point is to say that

"Human nature is deprived, but not depraved…"
 
40.png
Ghosty:
Just out of curiosity, is your friend a Protestant? I ask because Protestants have a VERY different approach to evil and original sin than Catholics, and it would be helpful to know in order to give the best responses possible.

To my knowledge, the only Protestants that really come close to the theological stance of the Catholic Church as it regards evil and human nature are the Wesleyians (Methodists and Nazarenes, most notably). I’ve found it a LOT easier to discuss such matters with Nazarenes than I have with Reformation-based Protestants.

Peace and God bless!
Click to expand...
My friend is a non-denominational christian. I guess then he would be considered a protestant for practical purposes, but he claims no religion. This is also why if I get any quotes or proof from anything other than the bible he won’t really accept it because it didn’t come from the bible. I have been looking at some of the other threads and received some very good information. I guess this just becomes another protestant/Catholic argument
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top