Are we damned if we do, damned if we don't?

[upbeatjonm]

Help me to understand what I perceive to be a dilemma of sorts, maybe a catch-22, as a fellow human and Catholic trying to get to heaven someday.
If we presume that few make it to heaven (according to narrow- road teaching of Jesus), how can I reconcile these varying alternatives:

1.  We fear going to hell based on the poor odds = despair, lack of faith, failure to heed Jesus’ command not to fear = end up in hell

2.  We are confident of going to heaven = sin of presumption, and perhaps pride for thinking we will beat the poor odds and are better than most other people = end up in hell

3. We don’t know if we will go to heaven or hell = lack of faith, hope, trust in Jesus = end up in hell

 

[MichaelHowling]

I don’t understand the question.

We have everything in our hands to get to Heaven. We know that “God wills ALL men to be saved.” God has given us the necessary grace and support. All we need do is own it and accept.

 

[atheistgirl]

Help me to understand what I perceive to be a dilemma of sorts, maybe a catch-22, as a fellow human and Catholic trying to get to heaven someday.
If we presume that few make it to heaven (according to narrow- road teaching of Jesus), how can I reconcile these varying alternatives:

1.  We fear going to hell based on the poor odds = despair, lack of faith, failure to heed Jesus’ command not to fear = end up in hell

2.  We are confident of going to heaven = sin of presumption, and perhaps pride for thinking we will beat the poor odds and are better than most other people = end up in hell

3.  We don’t know if we will go to heaven or hell = lack of faith, hope, trust in Jesus = end up in hell

You can’t assume your salvation is assured, according to Catholicism.

You have to work on it, ‘‘in fear and trembling’’ every day.

Me, on the other hand …

Sarah x

 

[MichaelHowling]

lol

 

[upbeatjonm]

I don’t understand the question.

We have everything in our hands to get to Heaven. We know that “God wills ALL men to be saved.” God has given us the necessary grace and support. All we need do is own it and accept.

Michael, I guess it comes down to this; whether we are pessimistic, optimistic, or uncertain about our destination, it seems that we are violating God’s commands (by having despair, presumption, or lack of faith respectively).

 

[Della]

Michael, I guess it comes down to this; whether we are pessimistic, optimistic, or uncertain about our destination, it seems that we are violating God’s commands (by having despair, presumption, or lack of faith respectively).

You have a misconception about presumption. It’s not the same thing as cooperating with the graces God gives us, which is what brings us to salvation. Rather, presumption is sinning deliberately and willfully with the idea in mind that it’s all right to do that since God will forgive us anyway. That is the sin of presumption, not merely having faith that God will save us if we cooperate with his grace.

 

[upbeatjonm]

You have a misconception about presumption. It’s not the same thing as cooperating with the graces God gives us, which is what brings us to salvation. Rather, presumption is sinning deliberately and willfully with the idea in mind that it’s all right to do that since God will forgive us anyway. That is the sin of presumption, not merely having faith that God will save us if we cooperate with his grace.

Ok, you’ve got me most of the way there. My remaining hangup is this question: if few make it to heaven, then it seems that any positive feeling that I have that I am on the right path is seemingly a sense of pride. Does that make sense?

 

[Della]

Ok, you’ve got me most of the way there. My remaining hangup is this question: if few make it to heaven, then it seems that any positive feeling that I have that I am on the right path is seemingly a sense of pride. Does that make sense?

Actually, it ought to humble us all the more because to whom much is given much is required.

Do not fear so about how many will be saved. That is not our concern, but God’s concern. He’s the one who loved us so much he gave us his Son and allowed us to kill his Son for our redemption. No one who loves that much is trying to send people to hell. Rather, it is obvious that he is full of mercy and desires all men to be saved. It’s up to us to aid him in that desire.

 

[upbeatjonm]

Actually, it ought to humble us all the more because to whom much is given much is required.

Do not fear so about how many will be saved. That is not our concern, but God’s concern. He’s the one who loved us so much he gave us his Son and allowed us to kill his Son for our redemption. No one who loves that much is trying to send people to hell. Rather, it is obvious that he is full of mercy and desires all men to be saved. It’s up to us to aid him in that desire.

Thanks, that is very helpful. I think some of my fears stem from quotes from St. Leonard, where only 1 out of 30,000 make it to heaven. Everytime I am at a sports arena with about that many people, I get depressed thinking about it. I realize that what he says is not gospel, but it stays with me nonetheless.

 

[CB_Catholic]

Ok, you’ve got me most of the way there. My remaining hangup is this question: if few make it to heaven, then it seems that any positive feeling that I have that I am on the right path is seemingly a sense of pride. Does that make sense?

Not pride. The Holy Spirit guides us into all truth. If you are on the right path, you should be able to discern that. It is perfectly allowable to have positive feelings about our faith. A Christian is supposed to be joyful.

And we have no idea how many make it to heaven, but Jesus promised one thing–if you follow Him and do His will, you will be saved. He WANTS to save us. He did not die on the Cross to condemn us, and He isn’t out to get us for every little thing. Sometimes people present Christianity in such a negative light, that it appears they are spreading BAD NEWS, instead of the GOOD NEWS (Gospel).

 

[MichaelHowling]

Yea, you got to let that stuff go upbeat.

Christ showed you how much He wants you with Him by going through what He did on the cross. Your God held nothing back FOR YOU. He loves you more than you love yourself and as it says in scripture “Nothing is impossible for God”…even taking us little specs into His own divine life if we permit Him.

God bless!

 

[homesower]

There is only one reason that you won’t go to heaven. It will be because you didn’t believe in Jesus and the Father who sent Him. And that will be because you preferred the darkness over light.

Yes there are a lot of do’s and don’ts, but they all wash away under the blood when you pay attention to the first item.

Don’t be presumptuous, but don’t make it overly complicated.

 

[Pugsly]

Help me to understand what I perceive to be a dilemma of sorts, maybe a catch-22, as a fellow human and Catholic trying to get to heaven someday.
If we presume that few make it to heaven (according to narrow- road teaching of Jesus), how can I reconcile these varying alternatives:

1.  We fear going to hell based on the poor odds = despair, lack of faith, failure to heed Jesus’ command not to fear = end up in hell

2.  We are confident of going to heaven = sin of presumption, and perhaps pride for thinking we will beat the poor odds and are better than most other people = end up in hell

3.  We don’t know if we will go to heaven or hell = lack of faith, hope, trust in Jesus = end up in hell

Wow…this is not a very “upbeat” thread.

 

[Della]

Thanks, that is very helpful. I think some of my fears stem from quotes from St. Leonard, where only 1 out of 30,000 make it to heaven. Everytime I am at a sports arena with about that many people, I get depressed thinking about it. I realize that what he says is not gospel, but it stays with me nonetheless.

As you say, St. Leonard is not speaking infallibily. The idea he is conveying, though, is that we cannot be slothful/lax about our faith. We need to be actively practicing it knowing that if we do let it all go it will be on our heads because God is always reaching out to us, but sometimes we close him off through indifference or worse, mortal sin, although indifference leads to mortal sin, so we have to be “on our toes”.

This should be a matter of desire on our part as well. We ought to desire to please God in all things by loving him and our neighbor as Christ loved us and died for us. It’s not a matter of feelings, but of our wills. No matter how much we would rather turn over and go back to sleep, we get up to go to Mass or we get up to care for our families, and those who need us. We are to be like the brother in Jesus parable who said, “No, I won’t work in the fields today” but did so anyway, rather than the brother that told his father, “Yes, I’ll work today” but did nothing. I hope that helps.

 

[upbeatjonm]

As you say, St. Leonard is not speaking infallibily. The idea he is conveying, though, is that we cannot be slothful/lax about our faith. We need to be actively practicing it knowing that if we do let it all go it will be on our heads because God is always reaching out to us, but sometimes we close him off through indifference or worse, mortal sin, although indifference leads to mortal sin, so we have to be “on our toes”.

This should be a matter of desire on our part as well. We ought to desire to please God in all things by loving him and our neighbor as Christ loved us and died for us. It’s not a matter of feelings, but of our wills. No matter how much we would rather turn over and go back to sleep, we get up to go to Mass or we get up to care for our families, and those who need us. We are to be like the brother in Jesus parable who said, “No, I won’t work in the fields today” but did so anyway, rather than the brother that told his father, “Yes, I’ll work today” but did nothing. I hope that helps.

Yes, thanks for the thoughts.

 

[Della]

Yes, thanks for the thoughts.

:tiphat: