Are we getting too friendly with the Protestants?

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Pope_Noah_I

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I mean, once they were called heretics, now they are “Seperated Brothers”. I’ve even heard people say that the Novus Ordo was created in such a way as to not offend any Protestants, (I have no idea if this is true). Also, this picture is bothering me immensely…

 
"We must admit it is a master blow of Protestantism to have declared war on the sacred language. If it should ever succeed in destroying it, it would be well on the way to victory. Exposed to profane gaze, like a virgin who has been violated, from that moment on the Liturgy has lost much of its sacred character, and very soon people find that it is not worthwhile putting aside one’s work or pleasure in order to go and listen to what is being said in the way one speaks on the marketplace. . . ."
– Dom Prosper Gueranger, Liturgical Institutions, 1840

“It is now theologically possible for Protestants to use the same Mass as Catholics.”
– Max Thurian, Protestant theologian, on the New Mass, 1969
 
Those quotes are frightening. One only needs look at an old missal to observe what we have lost
 
Pope_Noah_I said:
I mean, once they were called heretics, now they are “Seperated Brothers”. I’ve even heard people say that the Novus Ordo was created in such a way as to not offend any Protestants, (I have no idea if this is true). Also, this picture is bothering me immensely…
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They still are heretics in the technical sense. You have got to realize that the original Protestants violently attacked the Church and the Church responded by condemning them, but thankfully over time the anger on both sides died down so that mutual dialog could take place.

Most Protestants now days were born into Protestantism, not intentionally separating themselves from the Pope. We cant talk to them or treat them as the originators of those heresies, and make sure to point out which doctrines they hold are perfectly orthodox like the Trinity.

This attitude has done wonders in getting many Protestants to give the teachings of the Church a fair look, and many are infact converting, especially Protesant Pastors and those well educated.
Robert Koons teaches philosophy at U of Texas, he used to be a Lutheran but after looking into what the Church REALLY taught he realized he couldnt stay Lutheran any more. He wrote an AMAZING 95 PAGE apologetics report called “A Lutheran’s Case for Roman Catholicism.” of why he converted. I guarantee he would not have been open to this investigation if at every turn he saw Protestantism belittled in Catholic documents.

Regarding the doctrines that divide us, the Church has already laid out the parameters on issues like Justification, there is no compromising this because it has been infallibly defined. Open dialog will serve to show what we have in common as well as the irreconcilable differences.

As for the NO created to not offend Protestants, that MIGHT be true (IF there was a liberal agenda behind it), but when it comes to the ESSENTIAL aspects of the Mass, a SACRIFICE, priesthood and Transubstantiation, those types of teachings have already been infallibly defined and are in fact directly in IRRECONCILABLE conflict with “official” Protestant teaching.
 
Pope_Noah_I said:
I mean, once they were called heretics, now they are “Seperated Brothers”. I’ve even heard people say that the Novus Ordo was created in such a way as to not offend any Protestants, (I have no idea if this is true).
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Presume that its true, how does that bother you? How does it benefit you to offend anyone unnecessarily?

BTW, compared to previous times, many Protestants have stepped back as not to unnecessarily offend Catholics as well. I couldn’t see Billy Graham hobnobbing with Pius XII 50 years ago, yet he did have audience with John Paul II. The Protestants have toned down anti-catholic rhetoric.

I’m not saying that the old Latin mass was "offensive " to anyone, its just that the new liturgy is not.
 
i am quite proud of my protestant background. it has thought me to love the bible, to love others and evanglize, above all to be GENUIENE! i know we cant judge others hearts but the most depressing thing about coming into the Church is seeing so many catholics who do not practice or even believe what their faith teaches. but back to being friendly… i wish catholics were friendlier. i would have considered the catholic church much sooner if someone would have invited me to church with them or would have been more willing to talk about their faith with me but alas protestants seem to have cornered the market on being bold evangalists…or have they?
 
Why would any Catholic worry whether our Mass offends Protestants - the majority of 'em never attend one!
 
Kielbasi said:
Presume that its true, how does that bother you? How does it benefit you to offend anyone unnecessarily?
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We should not be making reforms in Our Liturgy just for the sake of pleasing Protestants.
 
Pope_Noah_I said:
… I’ve even heard people say that the Novus Ordo was created in such a way as to not offend any Protestants, (I have no idea if this is true)…
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It’s true. The following is a quote from Annibali Bugnini, as recorded in L’Osservatore Romano:

Bugnini: “We must strip from our Catholic prayer books and from the Catholic Liturgy everything that can be a shadow of a stumbling block to our separated brethren, that is, for the Protestants” [L’Osservatore Romano, 19/3/65].

Here’s another quote of interest…

L’Osservatore Romano: “Liturgical reform has taken a notable step forward on the path of ecumenism. It has come closer to the liturgical forms of the Lutheran Church. (October 13, 1967)”

One small step for ecumenism… one giant leap for the great apostasy.
 
Pax_et_Caritas said:
It’s true. The following is a quote from Annibali Bugnini, as recorded in L’Osservatore Romano:

Bugnini: “We must strip from our Catholic prayer books and from the Catholic Liturgy everything that can be a shadow of a stumbling block to our separated brethren, that is, for the Protestants” [L’Osservatore Romano, 19/3/65].
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How did that get past Paul VI?
 
Drunken_Master said:
We should not be making reforms in Our Liturgy just for the sake of pleasing Protestants.
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I don’t think that the reforms were made just for that purpose at all. But, while the changes were being made, a little civility was made as it doesn’t make sense to offend for no good reason.

Protestants in return are becoming more civil to Catholics.

I’m not quite sure how that hurts anyone.
 
Kielbasi said:
I don’t think that the reforms were made just for that purpose at all. But, while the changes were being made, a little civility was made as it doesn’t make sense to offend for no good reason.

Protestants in return are becoming more civil to Catholics.

I’m not quite sure how that hurts anyone.
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You mean besides the blow to the Holy Tradition of Our Forefathers?
 
This attitude has done wonders in getting many Protestants to give the teachings of the Church a fair look, and many are infact converting, especially Protesant Pastors and those well educated.
Robert Koons teaches philosophy at U of Texas, he used to be a Lutheran but after looking into what the Church REALLY taught he realized he couldnt stay Lutheran any more. He wrote an AMAZING 95 PAGE apologetics report called “A Lutheran’s Case for Roman Catholicism.” of why he converted. I guarantee he would not have been open to this investigation if at every turn he saw Protestantism belittled in Catholic documents.
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Many may be converting, but not near as many are converting as in the bad old days before Vatican II. According to the Index of Leading Catholic Indicators the numbers do not match your assertion that the new policies have done “wonders” for conversions.

***Adult baptisms: The number of adult baptisms is a true sign of the strength of any religious organization. And in the years before the Council the number of adult baptisms was skyrocketing: 38,232 in 1930, 73,677 in 1940, 84,908 in 1945, 119,173 in 1950, 137,310 in 1955, and 146,212 in 1960.

…

In 1965 there were 126,000 adult baptisms, in 2002 there were 80,000.***
 
Pope_Noah_I said:
I mean, once they were called heretics, now they are “Seperated Brothers”.]
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I just wanted to make a quick comment on this remark. They were also called “Separated brethren” by Cardinal Gibbons in his book The Faith of Our Fathers, written in 1876, so it’s not a new thing…

That’s not to deny that there is a lot of false ecumenism out there (there is), but based on Cardinal Gibbon’s example, I don’t see anything wrong in itself with referring to them as separated brethren.
 
Adult baptism stats aren’t relevant to Catholic-Protestant relations.

Most Protestants who convert are not baptized, as Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopal, Lutheran, Baptist, etc., baptism are all valid. Those who convert from the vast majority of protestantism, and all of the “mainline” protestants who the church has dialogue with, aren’t included in the stats for adult baptism.
 
Kielbasi said:
Adult baptism stats aren’t relevant to Catholic-Protestant relations.

Most Protestants who convert are not baptized, as Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopal, Lutheran, Baptist, etc., baptism are all valid. Those who convert from the vast majority of protestantism, and all of the “mainline” protestants who the church has dialogue with, aren’t included in the stats for adult baptism.
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That’s odd, when my wife converted from Presbyterian, she was “conditionally baptized” and presented with a baptismal certificate. The same is true at my old parish for the RCIA candidates. I wonder why they wouldn’t be included in the stats?
 
SnorterLuster said:
Many may be converting, but not near as many are converting as in the bad old days before Vatican II. According to the Index of Leading Catholic Indicators the numbers do not match your assertion that the new policies have done “wonders” for conversions.

***Adult baptisms: The number of adult baptisms is a true sign of the strength of any religious organization. And in the years before the Council the number of adult baptisms was skyrocketing: 38,232 in 1930, 73,677 in 1940, 84,908 in 1945, 119,173 in 1950, 137,310 in 1955, and 146,212 in 1960.

…

In 1965 there were 126,000 adult baptisms, in 2002 there were 80,000. ***
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Before the late 1990’s the internet didnt exist, since then there has been a huge explosion of information. I am very confident that a lager percentage of adult converts have read more of the ECFs and Church Documents than those in previous generations.

As for your “data” I dont know where you got it and most especially I take care when interpreting such data. Not calling you a liar, just that I know data doesnt always say what it appears to say. For example “Adult Baptism” in general, if a Protestant and his family who are already Baptized end up converting then those statistics dont reflect this at all. If there was a statistic of pure number conversions that might tell a different story.
 
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