Are we here just to glorify God?

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I guess the subject line explains it all. Is our value as human being tied soley to our ability to glorify God? If that is so, does that in itself justify God creating beings he knows will end up in hell and letting most of the world live out their lives in total ignorance of Christianity (for the last 2 millennia) etc.

The reason I ask is, if God is all good, then what kind of God creates souls just so that he can be loved/worshipped - with the consequences of failing to do so being an eternity in hell.
 
I guess the subject line explains it all. Is our value as human being tied soley to our ability to glorify God?
Glorifying the love of God protects you from sin and selfish desires. When you glorify God, your not just glorifying a powerful being, in fear of punishment; your glorifying the “Greater Good”, “Ultimate perfection” We are not just here to worship God; we are here to share in the ultimate perfection and Love of God. The only reason you exist, is to be in a never ending Union with God in Joy and perfect happiness. These things however, can only be achieved, as far as i can tell, by being in a perfect union with God, because he is the root of perfect hapiness, goodness and joy. If you oppose God, it necesarily and unavoidably follows that you oppose these 3 things, and therefore one is setting him or her self up to spend an eternity with out them. If we oppose perfection in our hearts and in our ways, why does one expect that we can gain perfection, and therefore ultimate joy and hapiness, when we are in fact in eternal rebellion Agains’t the root of what we desire? The life will live now; think of it as a stage of preparation and learning.
 
If that is so, does that in itself justify God creating beings he knows will end up in hell and letting most of the world live out their lives in total ignorance of Christianity (for the last 2 millennia) etc.
We cannot know why God does everything.

Although there is a danger of hell, Its not necessarily true that you will go to hell if one does not convert to Christianity, and niether is it promised that even a Christian will go to heaven, just because he is baptised and utters a few prayers now and then. Only God knows the sincerity of the heart. But if you go to heaven, it is because Christianity is the way truth and the life; and it is good that one finds and follows the right path, because it is Gods perfect will; and it follows logically that one will more likely find his way home if he sticks to the route that God has prepared, rather then journey your own way. It is right to search for truth, because it is perfect that humans should have responsibilities to. It would not suprise me if i saw hindus, muslims and atheists in heaven; but they would not be hindus, muslims or atheists anymore; they would be children of truth. It is said in the bible that man will be judged by what he knows. Nobody will be underservingly Judged or punished, and the only people in hell, are the ones that derserve it. However one must always be seeking the thruth, so that no blame can fall upon you for willfull ignorance.
The reason I ask is, if God is all good, then what kind of God creates souls just so that he can be loved/worshipped - with the consequences of failing to do so being an eternity in hell.
It is the will of a perfect God that you should exist. It is imperfect to rob you of your existence and freewill to choose, just because one
can foresee that you chose wrong. If God provides you with a will and a means to achieve what you was created for; then no blame can fall on God for Mans choices.
 
I guess the subject line explains it all. Is our value as human being tied soley to our ability to glorify God? If that is so, does that in itself justify God creating beings he knows will end up in hell and letting most of the world live out their lives in total ignorance of Christianity (for the last 2 millennia) etc.

The reason I ask is, if God is all good, then what kind of God creates souls just so that he can be loved/worshipped - with the consequences of failing to do so being an eternity in hell.
We were created for life in Heaven, not merely on earth. I think this is prefigured all the way back in Genesis. In the creation account, God “rested” on the 7th day. This rest of course wasnt for Him, but for us. Not only were we created to live and work like the rest of creation, but we were called to a higher calling. We have the ability to pray and worship; which meant participating as sons and daughters of God. We are meant to be with God to enjoy eternal rest. Its original sin that ruined everything. Because of the fall, satan infected the world, thats why now many people like you are having these negative perceptions.

I think your last paragraph is too black and white, only God knows our fate so to speak.
 
The reason I ask is, if God is all good, then what kind of God creates souls just so that he can be loved/worshipped - with the consequences of failing to do so being an eternity in hell.
One thing to ask yourself - how do you love and worship God?

‘Whatsoever you to do the least among you, that you do unto me.’

In practice, love and worship of God isn’t just done at mass. We do it by treating others with love, through compassion, work, faith, etc. If we abandon these things, even if we have eternal life, we’ll be in hell.
 
We were created for life in Heaven, not merely on earth…
and what do we do in heaven - we worship God.:sleep: The pleasure of heaven is not sitting aournd on a perfect beach, or floating on a cloud, it’s in worship. Christianity is like a form of self obliteration - we are not supposed to be happy, we matter only as much as our ability to glorify God, like empty vesicles. Our existence is to demonstrate God’s creative ability, his mercy for a few if he so chooses (and his justice for rest). Feeding the poor, demonstrating compassion, it’s all to please God, not the recipients, not because their lives have any innate value
 
I remember the old Baltimore cath. why did God make us? TO know , love , and serve Him . thats a pretty straight forward simple answer to a complicated question don’t you think
 
and what do we do in heaven - we worship God.:sleep: The pleasure of heaven is not sitting aournd on a perfect beach, or floating on a cloud, it’s in worship. Christianity is like a form of self obliteration - we are not supposed to be happy, we matter only as much as our ability to glorify God, like empty vesicles. Our existence is to demonstrate God’s creative ability, his mercy for a few if he so chooses (and his justice for rest). Feeding the poor, demonstrating compassion, it’s all to please God, not the recipients, not because their lives have any innate value
Hmmmm; thats what i use to think when i was an atheist. I imagined the dulliest thing imaginable. I suppose i was just looking for an excuse not to believe.

You cannot achieve real happiness apart from God. Living and doing the perfect good, submiting to Gods will rather then are own ill concieved plans, is what brings everlasting happiness and joy to ones heart. But instead of having faith that God will give us these things, we instead decieved our selves, because of are own lusts, impatience, and ideas of human granduer, thinking that such things are boring; and that are own agendas and plans are more worthy and perfect. We think we know whats best for are selves; we think we are wiser, and this is why we are proud enough to judge God for our ills in life. We do not stop to think that maybe we are the one responsible; but we do not, because like Adam, we are always looking to blame Eve.

Untill somebody is humble enough to have faith, very few will see the value of it. God does not say, do not enjoy ones self; he says, enjoy your self perfectly. God does not say do not have sex; he say’s, have sex perfectly. God does not say, do not have pleasure; he says, have respect for you creator, and love perfectly; But not for his sake, for he is perfectly happy. God says these things for our sake;, because we cannot be happy in the new life, unless we gain the perfection of Gods mercy and love. So God commands us to pray and love God with all our hearts; because when your focused on God, you are not falling into the traps and deceptions of the devil.

That is why there is joy and much glory being given to God in heaven; because those in heaven know that God is the well spring of joy and happiness, and they are now free from the pride and selfish desires of Satan. Man, is not a man and neither does he exist, unless God commands it. So if one was car, one could not expect to travel very far, and run very well, with Gods petrol, to run it. It may last for a while, but it will eventually break down and turn to rubbish; and there will be nobody around to fix because you have rejected the help the mechanic. Human beings need the Love Of God to survive; just like a car needs good petrol to run sufficiently. The sonner you believe that, the better for you. It does not harm me or God if you do not; God created you for your own bennifit, so he could share perfection. Why do you keep running away from him?

peace.
 
I remember the old Baltimore cath. why did God make us? TO know , love , and serve Him . thats a pretty straight forward simple answer to a complicated question don’t you think
To know, love and serve Him in this world and to be happy with Him forever in the next.

I think we were created to share and be happy with Him in Heaven. However, to do that we must learn to love, for love is the basis of happiness in Heaven. Knowing, loving and serving Him in this world is a hands-on course which teaches us to love. It is vital training, without which we would be incapable of enjoying Heaven.
 
Hey, all. First post here.

@OP: Good question. It makes God seem like kinda a narcissistic egomaniac when put that way, doesn’t it? He was sitting around in an infinite void, thought, “Hey, why don’t I make a bunch of things that will tell me how awesome I am? But they have to have free will, because otherwise it’s just me telling myself how awesome I am, which is fine, but I want other people to say it too. But why would they do that? Ah! I’ll make it so they have to praise me to be happy!” And that’s not a completely incorrect way of looking at things, but it’s not really accurate either.

First, whether creation is “worth it” or not is one of the Biggies, as mysterious as the problem from which it springs (pain). It’s answer is mysterious.

That said, I think the part of the answer lies, simply, in Love. God is truth, power, and glory, but he’s also Love, perfect and infinite. Love desires something to love, however, and though self-love is a form of love, it is not love in its totality. So, angels exist. But still, there’s the love of material objects. So, the universe exists, which is beautiful and magnificent. But still, there’s love of things that live, so animals. But still, there’s the love you can have for children, and friends, and spouses, and these loves requires a measure of equality. But no one can equal God, necessarily.

So, God made us, like him qualitatively though (obviously) not quantitatively, as receptacles of his love. We exist not so much as servants to fawn over God but as lovers to whom God can write poetry. Our happiness is tied to this in a necessary sense rather than a contingent sense. Love of God is like food, water, and air for us, like the matter which composes our cells: it is what we literally need to function, not an artificially created break that we could have just as easily been created without.

Basically, humans were created to be loved by God, but the level at which God loves us implies a mutual love, so humans were also created to love God. The Glory of God is in there as well, because God is all-deserving of Glory, because that is the Truth. It’s difficult to talk about God in this way, though, as if Love were, say, God’s lymphatic system, Truth his brain and brain stem, and Glory his skin tissue. God is something of a singularity, a point of convergence of all his properties which all inform, check, perfect, and intensify each other. If he had perfect Mercy without perfect Reason, for example, there might be no pain, but there would be no or very little pleasure. The Glory of God and the Love of God and inexorably connected and utterly inseparable.
 
and what do we do in heaven - we worship God.:sleep: The pleasure of heaven is not sitting aournd on a perfect beach, or floating on a cloud, it’s in worship.
You are making a mistake by thinking happyness is in the stuff you do here on earth such as eating ice cream, sex, lying on a beach, watching tv etc. We cannot know what it will be like. You have a slightly Islamic view on heaven; one that is very materialistic eg. the 72 virgins. I dont know about you, but the pleasures and “happyness” of this world seems imperfect and sometimes bittersweet.

I am sure that because you will be in the presence of God our bodies and souls will be so joyful and at peace that we will not be able to stop praising God. We will be really thankful.
 
Hey, all. First post here.

@OP: Good question. It makes God seem like kinda a narcissistic egomaniac when put that way, doesn’t it? He was sitting around in an infinite void, thought, “Hey, why don’t I make a bunch of things that will tell me how awesome I am? But they have to have free will, because otherwise it’s just me telling myself how awesome I am, which is fine, but I want other people to say it too. But why would they do that? Ah! I’ll make it so they have to praise me to be happy!” And that’s not a completely incorrect way of looking at things, but it’s not really accurate either.

.
further extrapolation : what if you had God-like powers and could create a being with an eternal soul, and one that could only be happy when directly worshipping, serving and loving you. You then gave them a finite amount of time to choose to love you voluntarily or choose not to and spend eternity miserable. Are these actions good or are they repulsive?

Imagine you said to your wife or your children " I only want you to be happy when your loving me, thinking about me", would that be glorious?
 
further extrapolation : what if you had God-like powers and could create a being with an eternal soul, and one that could only be happy when directly worshipping, serving and loving you. You then gave them a finite amount of time to choose to love you voluntarily or choose not to and spend eternity miserable. Are these actions good or are they repulsive?
Good, because it can choose. I’m not quite sure how this question differs, or what the addition of the concept of finite time has to do with it; if the time required to choose was infinite, then there would never come a point at which the choice would be made, so all you’ve really done is made heaven perpetually unattainable. Or I suppose you could give them infinite time to choose heaven, but then what about those souls which let their coals die and set themselves into perpetual rebellion? Haven’t you really just visited Hell upon them in another location?

I suggest reading “The Great Divorce” by C.S. Lewis if you want more on the time aspect. It’s a fascinating book anyway on the psychology of hell in general (and it’s short, too), but it does especially good justice to the question of why we only only have a finite amount of time to decide.
Imagine you said to your wife or your children " I only want you to be happy when your loving me, thinking about me", would that be glorious?
False analogy, though most are when talking about God. It’s not a matter of what God wants so much as what the Truth is. The Truth isn’t that God only wants us to be happy when we’re with him (implying that he desires that we be in pain when not with him as if he got his kicks out of looking down at Hell and mocking the souls there), but that it is only possible for us to be happy when we’re with him. There is a directly causal relationship between happiness and being with God, namely that the later directly causes the former. “To be happy” is defined as “to be with God,” and all earthly happiness is just a pale partial imitation of this.
 
Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, nor has it entered into the mind of man what God has prepared for those who love Him.

Basically, we called upon to worship God not for His sake but for ours. Nothing we do can add nor subtract from God; He is Love, and Life, and Perfection personified, on an infinite scale. But when we are in the state of true worship, “giving glory to God”, we are in fact uniting ourselves to the Divine Source of all things, which is really for our benefit, not His. There is a part of each and every human being that was made for God to reside it, a “God-shaped void” as Peter Kreeft calls it. I call it the heart of the soul, the part of the soul that is the spirit. (Remember, not all souls are spirits–dogs and cats, for example, do have souls, but those souls are not immortal, because they lack the spirit that God put in humans. Nor are all spirits souls–the angels and the demons, for example, are pure spirit beings. As far as we know, only human beings have souls that are also spirits, spirits that are also souls.) But the spirit of a human being is empty of God because of Original Sin. This is why the Sacraments even exist at all; to restore the soul’s spirit to its original state so it can exist in union with God.

The Sacraments are all incalculable graces given to us by the Son who sacrificed all so we could have them. Not only is worship for our benefit, it’s the very least we can do in* literally *eternal gratitude to Him.:gopray2:
 
further extrapolation : what if you had God-like powers and could create a being with an eternal soul, and one that could only be happy when directly worshipping, serving and loving you. You then gave them a finite amount of time to choose to love you voluntarily or choose not to and spend eternity miserable. Are these actions good or are they repulsive?

Imagine you said to your wife or your children " I only want you to be happy when your loving me, thinking about me", would that be glorious?
Your question treats God as though he was just an ordinary human (with God-like powers).

According to Christian theology, God is Love. All love and goodness that exists comes from him. Peace, joy, wisdom, faith, hope and every positive thing about humanity is a part of his nature. All of it springs from God’s creative power. No virtue could exist without coming from God, for every virtue is a part of him. Whenever a human engages in any virtuous act, they do it because they are made “in God’s image.” God’s goodness is shining through their actions.

You would agree with me, I think, that when humans do good things, they deserve thanks and appreciation for what they do. Every good thing comes from God, so how much more does he deserve thanks? And giving thanks while meaning it creates joy in one’s heart naturally (I discovered this experientially). Thus when you thank God, you give yourself joy as well as God. God also praises his followers for the good that they do. Our good acts are cooperative acts between their human wills and the will, power and grace of the Holy Spirit.

Now consider your question above from the perspective that God is the source of all virtue and that there cannot be any virtue in anyone in separation from him (since he is the source of all good qualities). That is Christian theology.

God is Love. Therefore no one can love without being connected to God’s nature through their love. Human love is a reflection of God’s nature that results from our being made in his image.

You seem to be imagining some kind of better world in which people didn’t have to love God to be happy. However, since God is Love, a world that didn’t love God would be a world that didn’t love love. A world that didn’t care at all about God wouldn’t care at all about love, since God himself is love. Without God, the world could not love. So you’re saying people should be able to live lives happily without loving anyone.

Similarly, peace, joy, wisdom, kindness, compassion, gentleness, patience and hope are part of God’s nature. If you were to have a world where no one has to love God to be happy, you’d have to have a world without peace, without joy, without wisdom, without kindness, without compassion, patience, gentleness, hope or any virtue. You’re asking for a world in which everyone is happy without possessing any virtue. Since God, according to Christian theology, is the source of all virtue and is himself Love, a world without God would be absent of any virtue.

That is why people end up in hell, too. Hell is the absence of God, the absence of all virtue. Some people want that for themselves and seek it. The further people turn away from God, the heart of virtue, the further they walk toward hell. Hell itself is simply the final destination of the journey they’re taking in this life. That’s why we see such terrible things in the world today- people create little hells in this world, on their way to their final damnation. The more people turn away from virtue, the more they must by necessity turn toward deeds that lack virtue, and which are considered despicable.

God wants people to love and embrace all that is good and virtuous, all that will make them happy by the very nature of what it is (peace, joy, goodness, all that comes from God). This is what people come to when they worship God, for worshipping God is adoring the source of all goodness and is loving pure goodness itself. We’d both agree that loving goodness is good, and praising good is good. Well, the purest goodness and source of all good is God, so loving and praising him is that much more good and worthy.

Some people do want to live happily without God. God gives them permission to make their own way rather than submitting to his perfect will. Since those people reject perfection, they will find imperfection. Since they reject that which gives complete satisfaction, they will necessarily find dissatisfaction. They cannot be truly happy without God, because people that do not love cannot be truly happy. To the degree that their nature is in tune with God’s and glorifies him, they will be happy. Another way of saying this is that to the extent that they love, they give glory to Love through their loving actions and find their heart’s delight through loving.
 
This reply to Cynic is part 2 of a post from the other page . . .

People who want to live happily without God want to live happily without virtue. They cannot do this. However, they are given permission to reject virtue if they wish, and in doing so they will experience the lack of virtues and will be destroyed in that absence. The complete lacking of virtue is hell.

Parts of Earth resemble hell in various ways. People who go to the eternal hell go simply to the conclusion of the journey they chose here on Earth. They want a world without God? They get what they want. And since God is the source of virtue, they reject all virtue by this act and make themselves a hell. God is kind to his followers, though, and creates (after death) a dividing boundary, a chasm, between the people in hell and those in heaven. Else the people in hell would assault the people in heaven, because their lack of virtue makes them evil.

Humans and demons, not God, created hell. Lucifer didn’t want to live in submission to Love but wanted to rule instead. Which doesn’t even make sense, if one thinks about it. How can any created being replace Love, the living source of all virtue? Darkness is the absence of light, for all evil is the absence of Love. Darkness is inside the hearts of humans and devils. Some people pursue it in this life, willfully giving themselves over to evil and seeking it. When people pursue evil, they are willfully pursuing hell. Other people pursue good, in this life therefore pursuing all that gives happiness and joy, pursuing heaven. Jesus said, “those that seek will find.” Those that willfully pursue evil (which is pursuing hell) will find the place that they seek. So will those that pursue heaven.

A secret of thanksgiving that is discovered by those who practice it is that it creates joy in those that do the thanking (especially if they thank honestly). Therefore when we make God happy, we make ourselves happy too. This also helps to increase our contentment and peace, which will in turn help to make us somewhat kinder. Which in turn will make God happier too. Virtue creates virtue, just as evil creates evil.

God is the heart of all virtues, according to Christian theology. Therefore from my perspective, you cannot have a world that refrains from giving glory to God and yet is virtuous.

I expect you’ll jump on that last claim, saying there are people that live virtuous lives without praising God. However, the truth is that every action anyone does that is good implicitly honors God, for it is doing his will. It also shows the splendor of his creation, which in turn gives glory to its Maker.
 
The reason creation glorifies God, including human beings is that the glory of God is in everything He makes or touches. He leaves His metaphorical fingerprints on everything. We are made in His image and that image is glorious. A beautiful sunset, a waterfall, flower, cloud formation, a pair of hands, eyes, snow flake, the stars, galaxies, sun and moon all glorify their maker, because His glory is in them. They reflect it. It is a matter of having the eyes to see it. God can not make anything that does not glorify Him.
 
Aparently yes that is our main purpose. It only gets better after we die. If we make it to heaven we get to stare at him for all eternity. I’m sooo looking forward to that!:yup:
 
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