Are we immortal?

[STT]

We cannot be created if we are immortal otherwise we can be destructed as we were created. So either we are immortal or created (mortal).

 

[Ad_Orientem]

Depends how you define “immortal”. If you define it as inherently and absolutely indestructible, then you are right. That definition isn’t the only useful or meaningful one, however.

Specifically, one can distinguish immortality by nature and by gift. By definition, God is immortal by nature. Man is mortal by nature, but God may grant him either a preternatural or supernatural gift of immortality. Neither of these entails absolute indestructibility. The preternatural gift of immortality granted to the First Man and Woman was the ability not to die, but did not make them invulnerable to physical harm. The supernatural gift of immortality bestowed on those who die in God’s friendship does, on the other hand, entail everlasting incorruptibility, but only after the body is transformed to an impassible state. Such a person would be invulnerable, not to an omnipotent being, but to harm from created causes.

 

[STT]

Depends how you define “immortal”. If you define it as inherently and absolutely indestructible, then you are right. That definition isn’t the only useful or meaningful one,
however.

By immortal I simply mean indestructible.

Specifically, one can distinguish immortality by nature and by gift. By definition, God is immortal by nature. Man is mortal by nature, but God may grant him either a preternatural or supernatural gift of immortality. Neither of these entails absolute indestructibility. The preternatural gift of immortality granted to the First Man and Woman was the ability not to die, but did not make them invulnerable to physical harm. The supernatural gift of immortality bestowed on those who die in God’s friendship does, on the other hand, entails everlasting incorruptibility, but only after the body is transformed to an impassible state. Such a person would be invulnerable, not to an omnipotent being, but to harm from created causes.

So we are not complete and we will be recreated? You cannot create immortal. That is the message of OP.

 

[ChineseCatholic]

So we are not complete and we will be recreated? You cannot create immortal. That is the message of OP.

Perhaps you can define this a little better - why would you say one cannot create or perhaps “grant” immortality?

The ancient Greeks for instance, believed immortality to be possible upon dining on the nectar and ambrosia of the gods.

To become an Immortal is an actual Goal in certain strands of the Daoist faith, usually by means of what Westerners call “internal alchemy.”

You make a distinction in you previous post about being Created vs. Being Immortal.

The distinction both ancient Greek philosophers and the Fathers of the Church is different.

Its between Being Eternal vs. Being Created.

Something that is Eternal is more than just Immortal, it stands outside of Time, as opposed to “a really long time.”

Eternity cannot be granted.

Being Created would imply were are within the track of time. Whether we are Mortal or Immortal. Its just that Time has a different effect on something that is Mortal vs. something that is Immortal.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

So we are not complete and we will be recreated? You cannot create immortal. That is the message of OP.

Incomplete–yes. But “recreation” seems to imply a change in identity or a break in existence, which is not what happens. Rather, the soul continues on when the body dies, then the body is reconstituted in a higher form and reunited to the soul.

We can say the soul is immortal, in that it does not age or decay in the way the body does, nor cease to exist. The person, body and soul, is mortal, in the sense that body and soul can be separated. A glorified body, however, is invulnerable to those natural forces that would tear it away from the soul.

Please explain your objection, “You cannot create immortal.” Explain why “If it can be created, it can be destroyed”. I see no obstacle to an omnipotent being making something that other things cannot destroy.

 

[STT]

Incomplete–yes. But “recreation” seems to imply a change in identity or a break in existence, which is not what happens. Rather, the soul continues on when the body dies, then the body is reconstituted in a higher form and reunited to the soul.

We can say the soul is immortal, in that it does not age or decay in the way the body does, nor cease to exist. The person, body and soul, is mortal, in the sense that body and soul can be separated. A glorified body, however, is invulnerable to those natural forces that would tear it away from the soul.

Please explain your objection, “You cannot create immortal.” Explain why “If it can be created, it can be destroyed”. I see no obstacle to an omnipotent being making something that other things cannot destroy.

What is created can be destructed therefore what is created is mortal. This means that what is immortal cannot be created.

 

[Sarcelle]

We cannot be created if we are immortal otherwise we can be destructed as we were created. So either we are immortal or created (mortal).

Your basic premise is wrong.

The angels are immortal but they are created beings. They are also not subject to death so they cannot be defined as mortal.

Immortal is defined as having no end or not being subject to death but that does not necessarily include having no beginning.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

What is created can be destructed therefore what is created is mortal. This means that what is immortal cannot be created.

You keep saying that “what is created can be [destroyed],” but haven’t given any proof. Man does not create, if creation means bringing into existence out of nothing. What man makes, is made from preexisting materials. God alone creates, and he can create immortals without difficulty.

True, anything can be destroyed by God; but you equivocate using passive verbs and no subject. What God can destroy cannot necessarily be destroyed by created causes.

 

[Roseeurekacross]

Our bodies are corruptible, unless we are rare Saints. Our Souls are incorruptible.

The Catholic Church teaches our souls seperate from our body at death, and goes to its judgement.
The Body will rise on the last day, join the soul, for the second and final judgement.

How does this happen? By the Grace and Glory of God.

Philosophy wont help you understand or fathom this one. Given you have already used an incorrect definition for immortality here.

Read the bible, Revelation, and the Catechism. Thats the best place to understand. Also pray for understanding.

God is in the realm of the Supernatural. Humans have a hard time with some concepts here

So yes our bodies go back to dust until second judgement. You forget Matter cannot be destroyed. There is the flaw in your thinking. Our soul, created by God, is created for Glorifying God. He creates it to seperate at death, then rejoin later. .

 

[STT]

Your basic premise is wrong.

The angels are immortal but they are created beings. They are also not subject to death so they cannot be defined as mortal.

Immortal is defined as having no end or not being subject to death but that does not necessarily include having no beginning.

So you believe that it is logically impossible that God could destruct a being, an angel for example. I think what is destructible is reducible and vice versa. A mortal thing is reducible (you can destruct it to its parts) and immortal thing is irreducible (it has no part so it is indestructible).

 

[STT]

You keep saying that “what is created can be [destroyed],” but haven’t given any proof. Man does not create, if creation means bringing into existence out of nothing. What man makes, is made from preexisting materials. God alone creates, and he can create immortals without difficulty.

True, anything can be destroyed by God; but you equivocate using passive verbs and no subject. What God can destroy cannot necessarily be destroyed by created causes.

Could God destruct a soul? This sounds to me to question that whether God could create a stone which He could not lift.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

Could God destruct a soul? This sounds to me to question that whether God could create a stone which He could not lift.

A soul would not be destroyed by reduction to its parts (of which it has none, as you point out) but by simply ceasing to exist. The only being that exists of itself is God; all other beings borrow their existence from that one Source. In other words, what keeps a soul in existence is not intrinsic to the soul itself, but lies rather in the will of God.

 

[Wesrock]

What is created can be destructed therefore what is created is mortal. This means that what is immortal cannot be created.

The soul can be destroyed (or permitted to cease existing) by God. By nothing else, though.

When we say immortal we don’t mean “existinging by intrinsic necessity.”

 

[STT]

A soul would not be destroyed by reduction to its parts (of which it has none, as you point out) but by simply ceasing to exist.

Soul persists to exist if it is irreducible.

The only being that exists of itself is God; all other beings borrow their existence from that one Source. In other words, what keeps a soul in existence is not intrinsic to the soul itself, but lies rather in the will of God.

So God can destroy soul, something irreducible? This to me is logically impossible.

 

[STT]

The soul can be destroyed (or permitted to cease existing) by God. By nothing else, though.

When we say immortal we don’t mean “existinging by intrinsic necessity.”

By immortal I mean indestructible. What is your opinion about my argument?

 

[Wesrock]

By immortal I mean indestructible. What is your opinion about my argument?

My first impression is that, with some qualifications about what is meant, you are right. The only truly immortal being, the only thing that cannot ever cease to exist, is God.

When a Christian says the soul is immortal, though, they don’t mean it is independently so. Ultimately, the only thing that can touch it is God’s will. But so long as God continues to give it what it needs to exist according to its nature, it cannot be broken down or destroyed by anythinf else. The soul is still dependent on God, and God could very well cease causing it to exist if it was within His will to do so.

 

[Sarcelle]

So you believe that it is logically impossible that God could destruct a being, an angel for example. I think what is destructible is reducible and vice versa. A mortal thing is reducible (you can destruct it to its parts) and immortal thing is irreducible (it has no part so it is indestructible).

God can do anything including destruction of an angel.

However if God does not do anything, the angel will continue to exist indefinitely.

This makes the angel immortal God permitting.

 

[Ad_Orientem]

. . . if God does not do anything, the angel will continue to exist indefinitely.

I know what you mean here, but I’d rather say the angel continues to exist because God does something, i.e., will its existence. If God did nothing, the angel would cease to exist. Perhaps this understanding will help address the OP.

STT, do you recognize the existence, at least theoretically, of necessary and contingent beings?

 

[STT]

I know what you mean here, but I’d rather say the angel continues to exist because God does something, i.e., will its existence. If God did nothing, the angel would cease to exist. Perhaps this understanding will help address the OP.

STT, do you recognize the existence, at least theoretically, of necessary and contingent beings?

Yes, I know that.