Are We Still Praying For the Conversion of Russia?

[otjm]

Please ojtm, please do not put words in my mouth. Not exactly what one would call truthful conversation.

Untruthful? Not so, laddie. I don’t think a quote out of the Catechism is an untruth; you lost me there.

Words in your mouth??? Open wide…

I wonder if anyone else senses the irony in the reply? “Except for the schism…” the Catechism in paragraph 1399, I believe, actually encourages interCommunion, subject to conditions. “And all except for the schism.” No fear there of imbibing a shismatic mentality!{/QUOTE]The rule is expressed elsewhere. Seems to me the Canon, but I don’t have it at my fingertips. However, the Church is very clear that they have the true Eucharist; and a careful following of the rule will not expose much of anyone.
maurin;7000934:

So we are back to my original point. Our Lady is not an ecumaniac. When she promised Russia’s conversion, it was not to a Church, and the Orthodox are true Churches, in schism, but to the Church Her Son founded on Peter the Rock.

Unless you can cite me her actual words, I will hold the position that her comments were more vague than you give them credit. I don’t recall ever hearing that she was specific on the issue of conversion.

 

[maurin]

My user id is maurin. It is presumptuous, not to say needlessly arrogant, of you to call me anything other than maurin.

I lost you there because you have twisted my words. Never would I refer to the Orthodox as protestant, as you made it seem in a post above. The Orthodox are Orthodox, and the protestants are protestants. All in schism from the Church Christ founded on Peter.

Read up on Fatima, otjm. I shan’t do your homework for you. I would use the roll eyes icon of which you are so fond, but I was taught better manners. Please consider it.

Anyway, it has been a pleasure conversing with you, but true conversations awaitb ones where mud isn’t being thrown. All the best to you, otjm.

Untruthful? Not so, laddie. I don’t think a quote out of the Catechism is an untruth; you lost me there.

Words in your mouth??? Open wide…
maurin;7000934:

I wonder if anyone else senses the irony in the reply? “Except for the schism…” the Catechism in paragraph 1399, I believe, actually encourages interCommunion, subject to conditions. “And all except for the schism.” No fear there of imbibing a shismatic mentality!{/QUOTE]The rule is expressed elsewhere. Seems to me the Canon, but I don’t have it at my fingertips. However, the Church is very clear that they have the true Eucharist; and a careful following of the rule will not expose much of anyone.

Unless you can cite me her actual words, I will hold the position that her comments were more vague than you give them credit. I don’t recall ever hearing that she was specific on the issue of conversion.

 

[otjm]

My user id is maurin. It is presumptuous, not to say needlessly arrogant, of you to call me anything other than maurin.

I lost you there because you have twisted my words. Never would I refer to the Orthodox as protestant, as you made it seem in a post above. The Orthodox are Orthodox, and the protestants are protestants. All in schism from the Church Christ founded on Peter.

Read up on Fatima, otjm. I shan’t do your homework for you. I would use the roll eyes icon of which you are so fond, but I was taught better manners. Please consider it.

Anyway, it has been a pleasure conversing with you, but true conversations awaitb ones where mud isn’t being thrown. All the best to you, otjm.

I could read up on Fatima, but for starters, I accept John Paul’s explanation and
otjm;7001037:

Untruthful? Not so, laddie. I don’t think a quote out of the Catechism is an untruth; you lost me there.

Words in your mouth??? Open wide…

It would appear that your humor quotient is particularly low. You seem to have taken offense to my comments, which were not made or intended in an offensive manner. Presumptuous? Arrogant? You seem a bit thin skinned, looking for insults where none are given.

This is a blog, and no one is being presumptuous or arrogant.

However, your comment above noted, lumping the Orthodox and the protestants together in schism is incorrect. It would appear that the Church of England was in schism at the start, sicne Henry decided he would no longeer follow the Pope, but be his own pope and authority; however, they have departed further in revising the format of the sacraments, and have heretical notions concerning some of them. Other protestant denominations are not considered schismatic but rather heretical as their base is not a rejection of authority, but rather a rejection of doctrine.

Whether you choose to accept it or not, schism is a rejection of authority. The eastern rite churches which were in union with Rome, and later broke off, were still Catholic. However they were not in union with Rome; when they reunified, they were still Catholic, but subsequently in union with Rome. What broke was unity; what was repaired was unity; and their sacraments continued to be valid during the break (unlike what the protestants call their sacraments, which departed both in form and in substance) and continue to be valid after the break.

I am aware that the root of the term “Catholic” means universal and implies unity; I am using it here to signify the substance - doctrine - which they maintained when unity was lost.

And by the way, not all of the Churches which went into schism went by the term “Orthodox”.

 

[At_Trent]

maurin, don’t take the bait. Let them feed themselves.

 

[maurin]

maurin, don’t take the bait. Let them feed themselves.

Yes, at Trent. This servant shall wait while the master baits.

For the Concecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart or Mary as requested by Our Lqady of Fatima.

 

[At_Trent]

Yes, at Trent. This servant shall wait while the master baits.

For the Concecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart or Mary as requested by Our Lady of Fatima.

And for this we must pray.

 

[maurin]

I understand that, but I did have a reflection on your statement, so I was responding to you.

Specifically you stated …
*" The Orthodox Church is not confused with the Catholic Church by the Orthodox themselves. Christians, yes. Catholic, no. " *

This is particularly where you are wrong. As far as I am concerned Holy Orthodoxy is catholicism at it’s sublime best.

Not only catholic, but from our perspective more catholic than the Pope (to play off an old idiom). Holy Orthodoxy is right belief, and right thinking catholic Christianity. Catholicism should involve correct thinking and believing above all, which is what *orthodox *means. To be an Orthodox catholic is to be a right thinking catholic Christian.

I don’t usually like to make these kind of statements because they can be construed as inflammatory and I don’t really want to insult anyone, but you are making a claim that Orthodox are not catholic at all, which is highly offensive to me. Perhaps you make the above assumption because we use the words ‘catholic’ and ‘orthodox’ as short handles for our communions in ordinary conversation. But I am here to tell you that the Orthodox church is as catholic as it was in 1053AD, because it adheres to right beliefs consistently.

A couple of questions, Hesychios.

Would the Russian orthodox Patriarch consider himself a Catholic? Would the Greek Orthodox? And by Catholic it should be obvious that I am speaking of Roman Catholic.

It should be quite obvious that I was referring to those Churches who broke Communion with Rome a millenium ago.

I in no way was referring to those Churches in Communion with the Holy See.

If I offended you, please be assured that it was unintentional, and I sincerely apologize.

Edited to add:

Forgive me, but I always assumed that you were an Eastern Catholic. After reading your profile I see that I am incorrect.

This is why, I believe, labels used as distinctions are necessary. To confuse the Label of Catholic with that of Orthodox, the former being in Communion with Rome, the latter being in schism, is in my opinion not quite honest precisely because it leads to confusion.

 

[Hesychios]

A couple of questions, Hesychios.

Would the Russian orthodox Patriarch consider himself a Catholic?

Yes!

Would the Greek Orthodox?

Yes!

We are the Orthodox Catholic church, we always have been.

And by Catholic it should be obvious that I am speaking of Roman Catholic.

No. I am speaking of the Catholic church.

It should be quite obvious that I was referring to those Churches who broke Communion with Rome a millenium ago.

The Roman Catholic church broke communion a millennium ago. That is a historical fact, one church left the five. In fact, it didn’t even involve a Pope, there was no Pope at the time and some Cardinals hi-jacked the situation, making this enormous blunder.

To Orthodox it is the Roman [western] Catholics who are schismatic. But I believe we can get passed those derisive labels.

If you are too proud to admit that I am Catholic and I am too proud to admit that you are Catholic we will never heal the schism.

I in no way was referring to those Churches in Communion with the Holy See.

If by Holy See you mean the bishop of Rome, neither was I. I was referring to the churches in communion with the many Holy Sees of the Orthodox Catholic east.

http://www.asianews.it/files/img/VATICANO_-ecumenismo%28470_x_289%29.jpg

 

[JSSebastianoP]

I don’t wan’t to be accused of hijacking a thread so far in, but wasn’t the original question " Are We Still Praying For the Conversion of Russia?"

For a second, can we presume that the Consecration of Russia has taken place.
If it has, are we still praying for it and why?

If the Consecration of Russia has not taken place,
once it has, should we still pray for the Conversion of Russia and why.

Whether or not the Consecration has taken place to me doesn’t seem the Crux of the issue - the heart of the issue seems to me to be: once the Concecration has taken place (whether as of August 2010 it has or has not), should we continue to pray for the Conversion of Russia?

Just my 2c/ and I’m actually curious to know the answer myself…

EDIT: I seem to have answered myself - I think there is a prayer called the Conversion prayer: “By your pure and Immaculate Conception, oh Mary, obtain the conversion of Russia, Spain, Portugal, Europe and the entire world.” although perhaps this was written when all three govts were communist - but now I’m just talking circles around myself. I’ll wait for someone wiser to comment…

 

[Thomas_Casey]

I was going to clean up this thread, but it’s virtually impossible. It has derailed from the original question. Again, posters are talking about each other.

Thank you for participating.

Thomas Casey
Moderator