Are we too stupid to be a Democracy, or even Catholics?

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I was indicating that I am not a “Dem” in the sense of being a member of a stereotype group of any kind.
Come on, just admit you misread it and jumped on him-

His specific quote was “All dem smarts and you favors tyranny.”

Translated to English, he was saying “You are clearly intelligent, yet you favor a tyrannical form of government.”

The word “dem” (ENG:them) referred specifically to your “smarts,” or your level of intelligence.

He wasn’t saying you were a “them,” as though he was including you in a larger group of people labelled “smarts.”

If that were the case, I believe that he would have said

“You am one ub dem smarts, and you favors tyranny.”

Translation: You are clearly a member of the group I refer to as “smarts,” and consequently I assert that you, as a card holding member of that group, favor the tyrannical rule of those you deem ignorant."

But he didn’t say that, and thus he clearly wasn’t putting you in a group of any kind, so just drop it and get back to your original issue.
 
However, we ARE expected to trust in and accept those teachings of the Church that we do not understand either due to our own ignorance of the facts or our own lack of understanding of the truth.
I’d say you just identified one of the critically important things that vast numbers of Catholics have not learned.

How many times has a divisive topic been discussed in these forums when a self described Catholic has defending being at odds with Rome by quoting the bible and his/her own interpretation of it?

How many times has a difference with the written Catechism been explained away as, ‘that is just his opinion, not an infallible teaching…’?

But look at the Dogmatic Constition:
“Among the principal duties of bishops the preaching of the Gospel occupies an eminent place. For bishops are preachers of the faith, who lead new disciples to Christ, and they are authentic teachers, that is, teachers endowed with the authority of Christ, who preach to the people committed to them the faith they must believe and put into practice, and by the light of the Holy Spirit illustrate that faith. They bring forth from the treasury of Revelation new things and old, making it bear fruit and vigilantly warding off any errors that threaten their flock. Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.”
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

Of course seeking truth is a continuous life long endeavor. But every trade or profession has a minimum level of pre-requisite knowledge, doctor, chemist, carpenter, whatever. In Catholicism, a basic understanding of what we are declaring in each line of the profession of faith (the Nicene Creed), and what parts of it non-Catholics reject, would seem to be mandatory. How can you announce you believe something if you do not know what you are agreeing to?
 
Come on, just admit you misread it and jumped on him-
I understdood the word, but did assume that there was an underlying political ideology. Granted, there is truth to what they say about assume.
Translated to English, he was saying “You are clearly intelligent, yet you favor a tyrannical form of government.”
Which is the interpratation I came up with, hence my assumption of a political ideolog. I favored no change in government in my original post. I simply proposed, as the founding fathers did, that being well informed is a critical component for a successful democracy.

I also noted that it is hard to be good Catholics if we don’t even know what we are supposed to believe.

If someone makes the jump from, ‘knowing your rectum from a hole in the ground before commenting on gastrointenstinal subjects’ to ‘your a smarty pants who wants to take away our guns and burn our flags’, it is my general experience that they are already a fierce political ideolog. That is, they are already seeing everything from a myopic political point of view, regardless of the reality of what is actually said.

I’m old enough to remember when “improving the general knowledge of the public” or even, “encourage people to be informed participants in our political process” were mainstream and non partisan concepts. Likewise, “invest more time in learning about our faith and less time on pointless popular culture” was once something that most Catholics would shake their heads yes at.

But one interesting phenomena is that we are not only less generally informed than the generations before us (or so say researchers), we are more likely to identify ourselves as ‘well informed’. Consider health care. We are currently facing 10-18% inflation in health care. With an aging population, this is utterly unsustainable. There are lots of possible solutions, but almost everyone agrees that something has to be done. When researchers survey people, they find that some large groups - for example, people who indicate that they rely significantly on talk radio to keep themselves informed, are by far the most likely to identify themselves as “extremely well informed” on US healthcare. But these are the same groups that are, by far, the least likely to correctly answer basic questions of fact about the US healthcare system (like what group of Americans spends the most money on healthcare - ie, stuff we can measure).

I’m lucky. I’m old enough to spend a lot of time dealing with health care, but also in a position that even if ‘quality health care’ means jumping on a jet and flying somewhere to pay it wholly out of my own pocket isn’t a problem. But lots of people are not so lucky. The quality, and even the remaining duration of their lives are somewhat in the hands of people who not only don’t know what they are talking about, don’t even realize that they are poorly informed. Again, it seems to me to bode poorly for self governance.

Or, put it another way - I like a free country. I like it enough to have put myself in harms way. It would be a shame to give it up for the right to be willfully ill informed…
 
Come on, just admit you misread it and jumped on him-
This is worth returning to. I probably did presume some attempt at double meaning, hence my use of double meaning in return.

Also, given the 'knowledge = tyranny" interpretation I assigned to the post. I jumped to the conclussion that the poster was a devout Fox News viewer and even the ‘humor’ was ideology.

That was wrong. I should have simply taken the post at face value and asked, are you really asserting that knowledge equals turanny or that ignorance is a necessary component of freedom? And left it at that.

Even though you arrived at the same interpreation, “knowledgable populations lead to tryannical government”, I should have tried to view the comments in the most charitable light.

Thank you for reminding me of this.
 
I’d say you just identified one of the critically important things that vast numbers of Catholics have not learned.

How many times has a divisive topic been discussed in these forums when a self described Catholic has defending being at odds with Rome by quoting the bible and his/her own interpretation of it?

How many times has a difference with the written Catechism been explained away as, ‘that is just his opinion, not an infallible teaching…’?
I think the thing to remember here is that, at least in regard to the Social Doctrine of the Church, the emphasis has always been on principles, not on particular moral behaviors, with the obvious exceptions of intrinsically immoral acts, like abortion. As a result, people do have the freedom to work out for themselves how they believe those principles are best applied in their particular society .

For example, there are numerous social encyclicals that emphasize the moral principle that workers must be paid a just wage. The principle that workers deserve to earn a just wage is not infallible, per se, but we are expected to give our assent to that principle unless we are able, in good conscience, to meet the criteria for legitimate dissent.

However, the Church does not specifically assign a value to the principle of the “just wage,” nor does it state that the government must be involved as an intermediary between the worker and the employer in determining this wage. Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable for two well informed, well educated, knowledgeable, and well intentioned Catholics to disagree on the role of the State in setting a minimum wage. While one Catholic could, in good conscience, believe that the minimum wage is a stepping stone toward the eventual achievement of the Just Wage, another Catholic could just as validly hold the position that the Federally Mandated Minimum Wage actually violates the Just Wage because it sets the wage so far below what would be a Just Wage in some communities or for some people- to the detriment of the worker-, while simultaneously setting the bar so far above what would be a Just Wage in other communities or for other workers- to the detriment of the employer and to those workers that lose their job as a result of the employers inability to maintain such a high wage.

I’m not trying to get into a side debate about the Minimum Wage- my point is simply that two people can hold very different opinions on how to faithfully follow through with Church Teaching. This doesn’t mean that either of them is ignorant, stupid, or somehow inferior to the other.
 
I think the thing to remember here is that, at least in regard to the Social Doctrine of the Church, the emphasis has always been on principles, not on particular moral behaviors, with the obvious exceptions of intrinsically immoral acts, like abortion. As a result, people do have the freedom to work out for themselves how they believe those principles are best applied in their particular society .
I am sorry, but I actually can’t find anything to suggest this is remotely true. The Church has been a geo political force for most of its history and is still anything but low key in promoting moral values at both the personal and societal level.

Take the political arena. The idea of boiling down “church emphasis” to only “obvious exceptions of intrinsically immoral acts” - namely “abortion”, appears to be pretty much a conservative political invention here in the US. First, condense right to life down to one issue, say abortion. Next, condense that issue down further, say to a litmus test about lip service to changing secular law. Last, compromise on it anyway (ie, vote for an intrinsically evil position on it), but wring your hands and say you don’t have any choice…

To presume that this is a Church position is quite a stretch. For one thing, the Mother Church appears to directly reject it:
“In this context “limiting the harm”], it must be noted also that a well-formed Christian conscience does not permit one to vote for a political program or an individual law which contradicts the fundamental contents of faith and morals. The Christian faith is an integral unity, and thus it is incoherent to isolate some particular element to the detriment of the whole of Catholic doctrine. A political commitment to a single isolated aspect of the Church’s social doctrine does not exhaust one’s responsibility towards the common good. Nor can a Catholic think of delegating his Christian responsibility to others; rather, the Gospel of Jesus Christ gives him this task, so that the truth about man and the world might be proclaimed and put into action.”
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html

In the next paragraph, the document goes further:
“When political activity comes up against moral principles that do not admit of exception, compromise or derogation, the Catholic commitment becomes more evident and laden with responsibility. In the face of fundamental and inalienable ethical demands, Christians must recognize that what is at stake is the essence of the moral law, which concerns the integral good of the human person. This is the case with laws concerning…”
There are nine broad moral issues, including, BTW, developing a socially just economy. There is no doubt that these are non negotiable principles, the list is cited and partially reiterated in SACRAMENTUM CARITATIS, with the words “non negotiable” and in the context of fitness for communion.

The Church does not micromanage from Rome, but the local Bishpos, “authentic” teachers with the authority of Christ, are often much more specific. Further, the Holy Father has visited us and, low and behold, did not spend every breath talking about abortion, but addressed many issues - including directly pointing out some unjust disparities in our society. In response, he directly instructed us to be more diligent in voting our entire faith, not just a few select teachings. As noted above, the Church views that approach as “incoherent”.

The point is not that you are incorrect in noting that there can be honest disagreement on the means to the end, on that point I absolutely agree. But, when the Church gives more specific direction, it is a serious matter for Catholics to disobey. Such disobedience should only be in response to the absolute moral certainty of one’s conscience, and the dissenter should make an ongoing good faith effort to bring him/herself back in communion with the church.

Also, there can be no honest disagreement without some acceptance of measurable fact and basic knowledge. For example, with no prior evidence, proposing that tax cuts on the wealthiest Americans, people like me, will both pay for themselves and lower poverty by spurring growth, can be an honest disagreement. But if the theory is actually put into practice and the result is the measurable opposite, then the honesty of the debate wanes. At a certain point it becomes clear that the loyalty is to the tax cuts themselves, not the outcome or the common good.

But I think that utter selfishness and greed is not our human condition when working in a large group, in the “light” as St. Paul would say. In the light, and under the scrutiny of our peers, we generally aspire to be more like Christ. In many cases, public knowledge is the light. Lots of folks here would recite talking points about the evils of oversight and the wonders of the free market. Why not? They’ve heard it recited to them, unchallenged, for heaven knows how long.

But the reality is that no society can be valid in the eyes of God unless it recognizes certain inalienable rights of the human person (again, see the link above). So some balance is required. Even the most die hard free marketer will usually admit as much when confronted with cold reality - don’t believe me? Just ask one if letting Fannie May or Indy collapse was a valid option for society!

Again, there is room for legitimate disagreement on proper balance. But the disagreement is only honest, at least in the Catholic sense, with some foundation of factual knowledge. For example, if someone is reciting the mantra they heard about free markets on, say Fox News, without any real critical thought about, say, this:

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080725/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/salmonella_lobbying;_ylt=AjtNoqe4Ui2iglctVuV9Ovus0NUE

They very well may not be meeting their Christian obligation to their fellow man. (I find it interesting that, as often is the case, the capitalists themselves, not just the common good would have been better served by a better balance in the example above).

Peace
 
I only knew the answer to one of those questions:
  1. In the Old Testament, who was changed into a pillar of salt?
c. Lot’s wife

I guess that makes me very, very ignorant. 🤓
Originally Posted by SoCalRC.
if someone struggles with more than a few, they really should make an effort to educate themselves before, say, voting.
With the choices we’re given I don’t think it matters whether or not ***I know ***the domestic product real growth rate of China or who wrote the Federalist No 10 in order for me to vote. As it is now, it’s a matter of holding my nose and casting my vote for the person I think is likely to do the least amount of harm hoping he’ll beat the person likely to do the most harm. Although, I do agree that it is important for the Administrative and Legislative candidates to know these things.
*Originally Posted by SoCalRC
…and certainly before offering moral guidance **on the same issue ***to other Catholics.
Agreed.

Years ago when I was in college I had a part time job collecting signatures for petitions and it was a very good education in itself.

I learned that the public loves to give their opinion. So if there was a person coming in to the store I would approach them by asking them their opinion. For example, “Sir, if you were the parent of a teenage girl would you want to know if she were to have a possible life-threatening medical procedure?” This would illicit their opinion and once giving their opinion I would then ask if they would like to sign my petition for parental notification. I was applying one of the six “Weapons of Influence" I learned from “Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion” by Dr Robert Cialdini.
Commitment and Consistency - If people commit, orally or in writing, to an idea or goal, they are more likely to honor that commitment. Even if the original incentive or motivation is removed after they have already agreed, they will continue to honor the agreement. For example, in car sales, suddenly raising the price at the last moment works because the buyer has already decided to buy.
I mention this because this is basically how I see forums. Internet forums are an opportunity for anyone and everyone to voice their opinion, whether that is an informed opinion or not. Once having stated an opinion, we fall into Commitment and Consistency. So then it becomes a matter of proving someone else wrong, rather than attempting to seek the truth.

Most of our opinions are greatly (if not entirely) influenced by the media we read or listen to.

I used to love to listen to conservative talk radio. After a period of time of listening I found myself adopting the views and opinions expressed by the hosts hook, line and sinker. Take for example Immigration.

Years ago I remember hearing on the news that some Catholic Bishops and Catholic Priests were protesting some of the Immigration Reform Bills before Congress. The headlines would read something like “The Church is for open borders” or “The Church supports illegal immigration”. Without knowing the first thing about these bills or what it was in them that was being opposed I was defiant and recall thinking these were some rogue, liberal clergy and that “they didn’t speak for me!”.

After some personal life experiences with this issue I was forced to examine my views and began to question the fairness of our immigration laws and the way these people are treated. Then I thought perhaps I should study what it is the US Bishops oppose and why, and what the Church teaches about immigration and my duty as a follower of Christ.

From my studies I realized that 1) these clergy are not just a few, or rogue, or liberal but do represent the teachings of the Church as our Pastors and 2) rather than the Church forming my opinion/conscience it was the media and conservative talk radio that was forming my conscience 3) most of the organizations opposing immigration are founded by a pro-abortion, anti-catholic, zero population growth eugenicist by the name of John Tanton. So not only had I failed to form my conscience by the Church teachings, but my conscience was being influenced by someone who hated me and hated my Church.

Given my understanding of persuasion and influence I know better than to be so complacent to these influences, yet I still found myself as such. This is only one example, but there are others and I’m sure as I live & breath there will always be more.

I still don’t think I have to know the domestic product real growth rate of China or who wrote the Federalist No 10 in order for me to have a properly formed conscience. I do need to be very careful and aware of the influences on my conscience and make every effort to look first and always to the Church with an attitude of ascent rather than dissent.
 
I still don’t think I have to know the domestic product real growth rate of China or who wrote the Federalist No 10 in order for me to have a properly formed conscience. I do need to be very careful and aware of the influences on my conscience and make every effort to look first and always to the Church with an attitude of ascent rather than dissent.
I think you are very wise.

(even if you didn’t know the Vikings had never won a Super Bowl)
😉
 
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