Are we too young to be engaged

[CoffeeHound]

Looked at the other thread. I don’t understand the need for an argument? If you have the money or want to spend the extra money for a wedding, you can. If you just want or can only afford the sacrament, then get the sacrament for free.

Same thing with the wedding gown and the fancy rings and the music and flowers and the expensive honeymoon, etc. Those things are real nice, but not necessary.

The point is that church’s are adding a surcharge to the wedding as a means to extract profit via price discrimination. I have no problem if a church wants to recoup its cost for renting the sanctuary; but I don’t like it when they try to use that as a profit generating mechanism because they know that 90% of people will want their parents present at the wedding.

The dress argument is a good analogy. If I want a fancy dress, it’s going to cost more than a standard dress. That’s partially because the material is more expensive and partly because the designer wants a bigger profit on the “upgraded” sale. Why do they do that? Because their goal is to maximize profit. Churches that charge a massive surcharge ($1500 - $2500) for a wedding ceremony are doing the same thing (increasing the price by more than cost to gain a bigger profit). Why are they doing it? To maximize profit. Should a church’s primary concern be to maximize profit, especially at the expensive of driving people away from the Church?

 

[ac_claire]

The point is that church’s are adding a surcharge to the wedding as a means to extract profit via price discrimination. I have no problem if a church wants to recoup its cost for renting the sanctuary; but I don’t like it when they try to use that as a profit generating mechanism because they know that 90% of people will want their parents present at the wedding.

The dress argument is a good analogy. If I want a fancy dress, it’s going to cost more than a standard dress. That’s partially because the material is more expensive and partly because the designer wants a bigger profit on the “upgraded” sale. Why do they do that? Because their goal is to maximize profit. Churches that charge a massive surcharge ($1500 - $2500) for a wedding ceremony are doing the same thing (increasing the price by more than cost to gain a bigger profit). Why are they doing it? To maximize profit. Should a church’s primary concern be to maximize profit, especially at the expensive of driving people away from the Church?

Oh ok I see what you meant now. So you understand that a simple wedding with the exchange of vows can be free, but don’t think it’s fair basically?

I’ve approached this argument before and never got into it because I don’t know how each individual parish works, what their expenses are or how they figure their budgets, you know? But I will say that I don’t see how this would drive people away from the Church. Just forces the poorer couples to make some harder decisions about their own finances and what kind of wedding they want.

For what it’s worth, when we had our free wedding at the Cathedral, we did give the priest a small donation privately. My husband handled it, so I don’t remember how much it was, but it was all we could afford. Other than that, the wedding itself was essentially free. Some family members spent maybe $20 on flowers for us. Another guest had our wedding cake made as her wedding gift. We wore our Sunday best and had all the family there.

That’s another thing, another piece of information that the parish might not volunteer but I’d like for people to know…You can have your family at the simple weddings, too. It doesn’t have to just be the couple plus the two required witnesses. Technically, the church is open to the public and *anyone *can come in. We asked the parish office about it when we were setting the time and date. We had the whole family plus all my friends in the city. All the people who we would have been invited to a big wedding came to our wedding. I think they appreciated the short ceremony. All in all the ceremony was probably about 15-20 minutes long. Then everyone cleared out of the church and met up at a nearby restaurant for a cake and wine reception afterwards.

I have been to some much bigger, much more elaborate and expensive weddings that were beautiful and were also exactly what the couple wanted, so I’m not knocking that if it’s what you want and/or can afford. Just wanting to tell the poorer, younger couples who might be afraid to get engaged because they’re worried about the wedding costs…that a “broke” wedding can be done gracefully.

 

[CoffeeHound]

Oh ok I see what you meant now. So you understand that a simple wedding with the exchange of vows can be free, but don’t think it’s fair basically?

Maybe that’s the disconnect. The “free” sacrament around here is in the priest’s office, not in the sanctuary. So you can’t have anyone you want there - you can only have two extra people because the office really only fits 4 or 5 (or 6 if it was standing room only).

I’ve approached this argument before and never got into it because I don’t know how each individual parish works, what their expenses are or how they figure their budgets, you know?

You can figure a rough cost for the use of the building based on the church’s operating budget. I have no problem charging a couple for the cost of the sanctuary and maybe some extra. What I do have a problem with is the mentality “Well, the collection tray is a little empty. Let’s charge an extra $2000 per wedding so that we can continue to fund the annual church picnic.” Or the idea “We have a pretty prime location. I bet we can charge an extra $2000.” Or “we’re getting too many non-registered weddings. Let’s up the price by $2000 to drive them away.” (and someone in the other thread basically admitted that his parish does the last one)

But I will say that I don’t see how this would drive people away from the Church. Just forces the poorer couples to make some harder decisions about their own finances and what kind of wedding they want.

• Couple plans reception
• Couple calls the church and talks to the wedding guild person
• Wedding guild person tells the couple that they need a $2500 fee today to reserve the sanctuary
• Couple says “whoa, that’s way more than we have. I wonder what the Presbyterian church down the street charges.”

It seems far fetched, but I’ve seen it with my own eyes, specifically when one person is Catholic and one is Presbyterian (or other non-Catholic). When the Catholic church throws out a ridiculous demand like that, people get upset and go to “Plan B”. Now you might say “well, they’re not good Catholics anyway…” but that doesn’t take away from the fact that they might have become “good” Catholics by going through pre-Cana.

Also, when I told family what I paid for mine (which wasn’t anywhere near as ridiculous as $2500), even the most die-hard Catholic in our family came back with “How could you go to a parish like that?”

 

[PatriceA]

Where do you people you live that its such an extravagent amount for a full wedding?? I’ve never heard of any situation such as some of you have presented. And I’m pretty sure I had a full wedding as some of you have described and paid the priest at the most $100, the organist $50 and the altar servers $20 each.

 

[CoffeeHound]

Where do you people you live that its such an extravagent amount for a full wedding?? I’ve never heard of any situation such as some of you have presented. And I’m pretty sure I had a full wedding as some of you have described and paid the priest at the most $100, the organist $50 and the altar servers $20 each.

Around here, parish charges $2000-$2500 for use of the church, then charges $20 for alter server, $75 for organist, $50 for cleanup, and recommends a stipend to the priest equal to the cost of the cake (so about $500 for a 100 person wedding). Pre-Cana is an additional $150 (but that does include the Foccus which some charge extra for).

If you’re a registered parishioner with a long history of donations, you get the church for $1000-$1500. That’s diocese wide.

 

[ac_claire]

Maybe that’s the disconnect. The “free” sacrament around here is in the priest’s office, not in the sanctuary. So you can’t have anyone you want there - you can only have two extra people because the office really only fits 4 or 5 (or 6 if it was standing room only).

They won’t do a simple wedding in front of the altar?? Wow. That really surprises me. Sounds to me that possibly the rules of this particular parish are a bit stingy and…lacking in grace, to put it charitably . I’ve never heard of anything like that before, so not sure how common this kind of set-up is.

I know that traditionally, weddings are performed in front of the altar. Whether it’s your big, beautiful, expensive wedding or your simple exchange of vows.

Where do you people you live that its such an extravagent amount for a full wedding?? I’ve never heard of any situation such as some of you have presented. And I’m pretty sure I had a full wedding as some of you have described and paid the priest at the most $100, the organist $50 and the altar servers $20 each.

Well I was in Texas. At the Cathedral (my home parish, and where we ended up getting married) the base fee was $500 for parishoners, and I believe $1200 for non-parishoners. At the other local parish that we sometimes attended the rate was something close to $1000 for either parishoners or non-parishoners. These fees included the “full wedding” (or a full Nuptial Mass) with the music, use of the parish hall for reception, use of the bride’s room, etc.

I’ve heard of some places that operate like yours, Patrice, but I think that that is the more old-fashioned way. I’m mostly going off what I’ve learned in similar threads over the years here at CAF. The flat fees for members and non-members of a parish seem to be more common these days. That’s why my husband and I thought it more prudent to just have the simple exchange of vows.

 

[PatriceA]

Around here, parish charges $2000-$2500 for use of the church, then charges $20 for alter server, $75 for organist, $50 for cleanup, and recommends a stipend to the priest equal to the cost of the cake (so about $500 for a 100 person wedding). Pre-Cana is an additional $150 (but that does include the Foccus which some charge extra for).

If you’re a registered parishioner with a long history of donations, you get the church for $1000-$1500. That’s diocese wide.

Specifically WHERE is around here though? That’s what I’m asking. I live in Southwestern PA.

 

[PatriceA]

They won’t do a simple wedding in front of the altar?? Wow. That really surprises me. Sounds to me that possibly the rules of this particular parish are a bit stingy and…lacking in grace, to put it charitably . I’ve never heard of anything like that before, so not sure how common this kind of set-up is.

I know that traditionally, weddings are performed in front of the altar. Whether it’s your big, beautiful, expensive wedding or your simple exchange of vows.

Well I was in Texas. At the Cathedral (my home parish, and where we ended up getting married) the base fee was $500 for parishoners, and I believe $1200 for non-parishoners. At the other local parish that we sometimes attended the rate was something close to $1000 for either parishoners or non-parishoners. These fees included the “full wedding” (or a full Nuptial Mass) with the music, use of the parish hall for reception, use of the bride’s room, etc.

I’ve heard of some places that operate like yours, Patrice, but I think that that is the more old-fashioned way. I’m mostly going off what I’ve learned in similar threads over the years here at CAF. The flat fees for members and non-members of a parish seem to be more common these days. That’s why my husband and I thought it more prudent to just have the simple exchange of vows.

See you said “use of the parish hall for reception” and that I can totally understand the fees involved, because that would be normal for any place around here if you wanted any kind of reception.

I think “full wedding” needs to be defined as some people have already used the term in some posts. In my mind a “full wedding” means a full nuptial mass and that’s the only event taking place in the actual Church building. Everything else is held off church property.

 

[ac_claire]

See you said “use of the parish hall for reception” and that I can totally understand the fees involved, because that would be normal for any place around here if you wanted any kind of reception.

Now that you’ve pointed this out you have me questioning it. So don’t hold me to this until I make sure but I believe that the use of the parish hall or the narthex *only *for something simple like a cake and punch reception (paid for of course by the wedding party) is included in the base fees of the two parishes we looked at.

 

[PatriceA]

Now that you’ve pointed this out you have me questioning it. So don’t hold me to this until I make sure but I believe that the use of the parish hall or the narthex *only *for something simple like a cake and punch reception (paid for of course by the wedding party) is included in the base fees of the two parishes we looked at.

I edited my previous post, but if what some of you are referring to as a “full wedding” is extended use of church buildings for other events during the actual wedding day, such as a reception or etc, I can understand the fees involved. Any parish should charge an appropriate amount for the use of their facilities if you are using them for events during the wedding day that you would have to obtain otherwise if facitlites at the parish were not available. But paying even over $500 dollars for the use of just the church to get married?? never heard of such a thing.

As far as the pre-cana fee, I can’t argue that either because I can understand the fee for the materials involved. I have to pay a fee for my daugther’s religious education, why would pre-cana be any different.?

 

[shannyk]

I am 21 and my girlfriend of almost 4 years is 20. We have known each other since 2nd grade and began dating my senior year of high school, her junior year. We began dating after our first Steubenville conference and our entire relationship is grounded in our faith in Christ. I am graduating from college next December and I am considering asking her to marry me. We don’t think we should be married for two or three more years and she’s kind of expecting me to pop the question in a year or so. I want to ask her now because I have been with her for so long and my intentions are to marry her and I figure why not make this known concretely to everyone by asking her to be my wife.

I am not sure if this is the right thing to do or if I should wait another year before asking. I am going to have to ask her dad, step-dad and her mom and I do not think they may approve because of our age.

Any advice?

There is such a broad range of maturity in 20 something year olds that it’s impossible to say IMHO. Some 21 yr olds are as far from being ready for marriage as the Earth is from Pluto, and some are quite mature indeed. Without knowing YOU it’s hard to say.

FWIW, I got engaged at 17.5 and was married just after I turned 20. I was always the mature one. I looked older and acted older. I was into being an adult when I was very young, I was the oldest in my family and was used to lots of responsibility. So when i got married at 20 I don’t think anyone was surprised. Then I had my first child at 21. Though I stuck with my marriage (until my husband passed away when I was 27) because I was mature enough to know what commitment and marriage meant, I don’t think I had any idea at 20 what that really meant. I think that I realized it would be hard, but I don’t think I realized just how hard, but then again who does at any age??. If I had to do it all over again, I don’t think I would do it at age 20. 24? yes. But that’s just me. Do I regret it? No.

 

[ac_claire]

I edited my previous post, but if what some of you are referring to as a “full wedding” is extended use of church buildings for other events during the actual wedding day, such as a reception or etc, I can understand the fees involved. Any parish should charge an appropriate amount for the use of their facilities if you are using them for events during the wedding day that you would have to obtain otherwise if facitlites at the parish were not available. But paying even over $500 dollars for the use of just the church to get married?? never heard of such a thing.

As far as the pre-cana fee, I can’t argue that either because I can understand the fee for the materials involved. I have to pay a fee for my daugther’s religious education, why would pre-cana be any different.?

For the purposes of this discussion I think that the “full wedding” should include whatever the parish lists as being included under their wedding fees. Since this conversation is more about about the fees than anything else. The parishes I looked into did list limited use of the narthex or parish hall as a meeting place before or after the ceremony. Whether they’re allowed to have cake and punch (for instance) and call it a “reception” is I’m assuming up to each individual parish. In my experience most of these wedding parties don’t have the actual reception at the church, though.

The pre-cana fees and marriage prep fees/classes/etc. aren’t usually mentioned in the wedding instructions/guidelines. We were just told to contact the priest about it and the marriage prep stuff was all arranged separately. Because it is totally separate from the actual wedding.

(Marriage prep fees are a whole 'nother topic. )

 

[jilly4ski]

But paying even over $500 dollars for the use of just the church to get married?? never heard of such a thing.

I don’t remember how much it was for us, it was between $200 and $800. However, This included the full nuptial mass, so it paid for the hosts and wine, the person to come in and unlock the church, a sacristan to get the bread and wine ready as well as the alter cloths, the person to come in to set up the sound system (which is quite complicated as well as Father’s wireless mike), and a maintenance person to clean bathrooms and make sure things are running smoothly. These people don’t want to give up their Saturdays so it is only fair that the church give them a stipend. (also the church had to be ready for the vigil mass at 5pm). Plus overhead costs, since the church isn’t normally open, lighting, ac, insurance, etc.

We were responsible for our own music (though the church gave us the names of the music leaders who could do the music. (I had one of these people for $150, and 2 separate musicians at $75 a piece, plus a family member whom I gave $20). (So when the other poster was outraged at $50 dollars for an organist, I thought that is extreme, they have to practice and learn the music you want for your wedding and music is how they earn their living, so $50 is really cheap for an organist). The priest stipend was not mentioned (though it said it was customary to give one, we gave $100 to the priest). Our pre-cana was expensive but not because the church made it so. Most of the costs were materials related. Our NFP teachers were parishioners and only charged for the materials ($60) not their time, (and the church provided snacks). We had a sponsor couple who were volunteers, focus ($), and then we were required to attend 2 retreats, which we chose the cheap ones so about $200. So the costs add up, but they do for the church as well.

I have no problem with the church charging extra for non parishioners. It is hard to give priority to parishioners when booking the church is first come first serve. We had a 2 year engagement and booked the church right away we almost didn’t get the weekend we wanted in July. That’s two years in advance we almost couldn’t get a Saturday wedding. And this is not a super large (500 families) or a very pretty church (built 1981). This was the parish I and my family was registered and active in. The church wants couples to get married in their or their families home parishes and we don’t want people just to use the church to get their “pretty” wedding and then never set foot in church again. So if they have to dole out a little more cash maybe they will take the time to either become members or think that having a church wedding is important.

 

[PatriceA]

OP, I didn’t mean to hijack your thread as much as I did. But if you do decide to ask your girlfriend within the next year, you may want to investigate the waiting period, the costs, etc at the parish you would likely choose for the wedding. Because if you are anticipating trouble with her parents, being informed as much as possible about the details and expenses of how you would provide for the ceremony and life there after would certainly help them accept your request.

 

[dconklin]

Personally, I would wait a bit - until schooling is done, you get a job, pay down any school debt and get some savings.

Yeah, I agree with this advice. I went to Steubenville for school and had many friends get married right after school. For the couples I have kept up with, they are still together, have big families and are not too old to play with the kids. The idea just scared me because they were starting out without jobs or much of a plan.

When I was in school I did not have any deeply meaningful relationships - other than the one with God. I had fun and enjoyed my time, but for me a serious relationship with a girl would have gotten in the way of studies and intramural sports. I did date, but not too seriously. After graduation I got a job, made some money and went back for my Masters. Again, after graduation I got a job and lived life more for me than for another. I found it important to figure out who I was before getting serious. I was able to travel, have fun, and get a good job. I did eventually become involved with someone special, got married and began a family. We were both 27 before our first kid came along.

Just my thoughts…

 

[SonCatcher]

Strange about the church that apparently charges 2000-2500. We married at a beautiful church in the Silicon Valley about 6 years ago. It is a kind of destination church that typically holds 3 weddings every Saturday and is booked 12 months in advance. Neither my bride nor I were parishioners. I think only 3 or 4 different groups within the parish needed donations and the suggested total was less than $500 (including Altar servers and the Priest’s stipend - he wasn’t even a priest at that church). The wedding coordinator even forbade us offering the servers more than $10 each.